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Analog Setup


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29 replies to this topic

#1 of 30 marano

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Posted July 31 2006 - 11:54 PM

I recently purchased a HD-A1 along with a Rotel RSX-1057 receiver and connected the HD-A1 to the analog inputs on the Rotel, now I see that there are 5.1 settings on the HD-A1 for sound volume levels, crossovers, and speaker size and right now I have everything set to small with a 80Hz crossover and the sound levels for all speakers at 0db. Now I would like to bypass the Toshiba settings entirely and use my Rotel settings which the sound levels have been calibrated via SPL, all the speakers are set to small, the crossovers on the fronts are set to 60Hz and everything else except for the sub (which is off) is set to 80Hz. What are the recommendations for analog setup on the HD-A1 and Receiver? Is there a way to bypass the settings on the Toshiba and use only my Rotel settings??

#2 of 30 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 01 2006 - 01:35 AM

Frank,

You should find most of what you are looking for here:

http://www.hometheat....d.php?t=238337
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#3 of 30 marano

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Posted August 01 2006 - 10:37 AM

So basically I just need to set all the Speakers to large, the distance to 0ft, crossover to 120Hz, and the sound levels for everything for -10db except for the sub which needs to be set at 0db and it will pretty much bypass the HD-A1's settings and use the Rotel's. Is this correct?

#4 of 30 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 01 2006 - 12:55 PM

Frank,

Yes, that is correct. The only unknown is whether you need to set your speakers at -10db or whether you receiver will automatically compensate for the difference. I have yet to test that myself. Currently, I am using the exact player-side settings you described.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#5 of 30 marano

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Posted August 08 2006 - 11:34 PM

I spoke to Rotel and they said that my current setup (Large Speakers, 0 distance, 120Hz crossover, etc..) will only work if your Receiver/Processor applies Bass Management to the Analog Inputs which mine does not. They basically said that my sound levels will be applied from the Rotel to the Analog Inputs but other than that everything else should be setup correctly on the Toshiba (speaker size, distance, crossover). Toshiba also confirmed that there was no way to bypass their boxes settings.

#6 of 30 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 09 2006 - 01:50 AM

Frank,

Interesting. Now I suppose the question for me is, does the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi apply bass management to the analog inputs. I think it may. If it does, do I then not need to set the speakers to -10db?
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#7 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 09 2006 - 05:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Frank,

Interesting. Now I suppose the question for me is, does the Pioneer Elite VSX-49TXi apply bass management to the analog inputs. I think it may. If it does, do I then not need to set the speakers to -10db?

Just Calibrate your Audio using Toshiba's Auto Test Tones @ 75 all around. If your AV Receiver adds bass management, you'll find out when you read the subwoofer's SPL level.

In my case, my Yamaha RX-V1300 does not, so I dialed my most efficient speaker (Center***) to -12 in the Toshiba's 5.1 menu and the following shows the results ...

YAMAHA RX-V1300 AUDIO REFERENCE LEVEL - using TOSHIBA HD-A1 Internal Test Tones:
- Radio Shack SPL Settings: Weight = C / Speed = SLOW / Dial = 70dB

SPEAKERS SPL = 75 dB / except SUBWOOFER* = 82 to 83 dB SPL (lowest to highest needle swing)

YAMAHA 6CH VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -36.5**
Front Left:...... -5
Center:.......... -12
Front Right:.... -5
L Surround:.... -4
R Surround:.... -4

*Subwoofer:...... 0 (Dial = 80dB)

------------------

**As a point of reference, my Dolby Labs EX w/dedicated LFE Test Tones YAMAHA 6CH VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -19.5

------------------

Using identical Sahara HD-DVD clip sample @ -86 dB SPL Peaks ...
- Radio Shack SPL Settings: Weight = C / Speed = SLOW / Dial = 80dB, ...

...... my actual listening SPL environment is ...

1) YAMAHA 6CH VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: ....-28.5 (Analog)

2) YAMAHA COAX VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: ...-36.5

...... or basically a 8 dB difference.

============================

FYI: I usually listen to my SD DVDs @ ...

A) YAMAHA COAX VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: ...-29.5

...... or -10 dB below REF Level (REF Level = 19.5) which usually has the LFE Fast SPL Peaks reaching 106 dBc.
- Radio Shack SPL Settings: Weight = C / Speed = Fast / Dial = 100dB

Reaching the same -10 dB REF Level feel & 106 dB LFE Fast SPL Peaks using my 6.1ch (Yamaha labeling) Analog input for HD DVDs =

B) YAMAHA 6CH VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: ...-22.5 (Analog)

...... approx. 7 dB difference between my SD DVD vs. HD DVDs SPLs.

=========

By the way, the Analog dynamics, separation and distinct seamless surrounds is "Most Glorious and With Much Glory!!! (to quote a well known Klingon) Posted Image Posted Image

=========
***FYI: Equipment profile:
-------------------------------------
JBL S-Series Sensitivity Ratings:
- JBL S-26 (x6) = 87 dB (2.83V @ 1m)
- JBL S-Center = 91 dB (2.83V @ 1m)

Subwoofer:
- SVS 25-31PCi

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#8 of 30 marano

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Posted August 09 2006 - 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Iturralde
Just Calibrate your Audio using Toshiba's Auto Test Tones @ 75 all around. If your AV Receiver adds bass management, you'll find out when you read the subwoofer's SPL level.
Phil

From what I read the Toshiba's test tones are inaccurate. Since Rotel confirmed that my sound levels from the 1057 will be applied to the analog inputs I'm not going to even mess with the Toshiba's levels I just have everything set at 0db.

#9 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 10 2006 - 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by marano
From what I read the Toshiba's test tones are inaccurate. Since Rotel confirmed that my sound levels from the 1057 will be applied to the analog inputs I'm not going to even mess with the Toshiba's levels I just have everything set at 0db.

Apparently your Rotel can adjust the Analog INputs SPLs , ... my Yamaha RX-V1300 cannot.

If I leave the Toshiba HD-A1 5.1 speakers settings @ 0 , my SPLs would be approx. ...

Front Left:...... 80 dBc
Center:.......... 87 dBc
Front Right:.... 80 dBc
L Surround:.... 79 dBc
R Surround:.... 79 dBc
*Subwoofer:...... 82 - 83 dBc (as noted above)

Obviously those SPLs are unbalanced @ my 'sweet spot'!!! The LFE/subwoofer track would be weak, and the Center Channel would overpower the rest of the system - Not Acceptable, wouldn't you agree???

So, I equalized my SPLs using the HD-A1 Test Tones all-around me = 75 dBc (see values above) @ my usual 'sweet spot' and the proof that the HD-A1 Test Tones work is glorious seamless 360-degree surround sound!!!

I just watched "Sky Captain", and the Analog DD+ pin-point 360-degree discrete surround sound(s) is an eye-opener!!! Posted Image

The designed distinct surround sounds at any 360-degree point location(s) around me is clearly defined, ... adding another dimensional sensory level to the on-screen action. Posted Image

Comparing the Sky Captain SD DVD vs. the HD DVD video easily shows the HD DVD details clarity, 3d depth of the digital film on 1080p DLP and comparing the audio, ... the HD DVD active dynamics, full-range fequency, pin-point accuracy of the 360-degree surround effects, ... makes the SD DVD DD-5.1 sound masked and dynamic limited.

Can't wait for Serenity to arrive!!! (in the mail) Posted Image

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#10 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 12 2006 - 03:38 AM

Quote:
Apparently your Rotel can adjust the Analog INputs SPLs , ... my Yamaha RX-V1300 cannot.
CORRECTION: Finally had time to review my Yamaha Manual & play around with my Yamaha controls and it looks like that I CAN Modify and Adjust my SPLs while I'm in the Yamaha 6-CH INPUTs. Posted Image

Later tonight, I'll compare the two Audio Calibration processes ...

1) Toshiba Internal Test Tones

vs.

2) Digital Video Essentials w/dedicated LFE Test Tones
.... a) I'll reset the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker Settings to Speakers = Large / X-Over = 120 Hz.

... Audio Calibration and see how they audibly compare in my setup.

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#11 of 30 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 12 2006 - 05:36 AM

Phil,

I'm definitely interested in hear your results. You can check this link:

http://www.hometheat....2&postcount=20

...to get an idea of how confused I've become by this. Posted Image

I'm definitely interested in hearing all the specifics regarding exactly which DVE test tones you use, so I can try to replicate your tests. Audio calibration is so not my strong suit. Posted Image

I guess the thing that confuses me most is that through Multi Ch. Adjust on my receiver, I am supposed to be able to apply all the sounds levels, etc. but the testing I did with DVE seems to indicate a big discrepancy in the bass. That is why I am so interested in your DVE tests and results. I wouldn't be at all suprised if I did the tests incorrectly.
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#12 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 14 2006 - 01:51 AM

Since my HD DVDs sounds great presently, I decided just to run Digital Video Essentials DVD without changing the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker & SPL Settings & see how much different my equalized SPLs are with Digital Video Essential Test Tones.

Equipment:
YAMAHA RX-V1300

1) My Yamaha does not have individual SPL Level Controls for the Front R&L SPRKs, so as usual, I raised my YAMAHA 6CH VOL CNTRL until the SPL = 75 dBc. See Results below:

Radio Shack Sound Level Meter:
1) On tripod @ my 'sweet spot' pointing towards the Center & angled up about 50-degrees.
2) SPL Settings: Weight = C / Speed = SLOW / Dial = 70dB (except subwoofer = 80dB)

Toshiba 5.1 Speaker Settings
SPEAKERS Size = SMALL
CROSSOVER = ...120 Hz (EDIT: 8-15-06: was 80 Hz, reason posted below)
SPKR Distance:
- Front L = .....8 ft
- Center = ......7 ft
- Front R = .....8 ft
- L Surround = ..10 ft
- R Surround = ..10 ft
- Subwoofer = ...12.25 ft

YAMAHA RX-V1300 AUDIO REFERENCE LEVEL - using TOSHIBA HD-A1 5.1 Internal Test Tones:
YAMAHA 6CH (Analog) VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -36.5 dB
Front Left:...... -5 = ....75 dB
Center:.......... -12 = ...75 dB
Front Right:.... -5 = .....75 dB
L Surround:.... -4 = ......75 dB
R Surround:.... -4 = ......75 dB
Subwoofer:...... 0 = ......82 to 83 dB SPL (lowest to highest needle swing)


--------------------------------

YAMAHA RX-V1300 AUDIO REFERENCE LEVEL - using Digital Video Essentials 5.1 Test Tones
YAMAHA 6CH (Analog) VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -10.5 dB REF LEVEL
Center:.......... -0.5 = ....75 dB
L Surround:.... +1.5 = ....75 dB
R Surround:.... +1.5 = ....75 dB
Subwoofer:...... 0 = ......92 to 93 dB SPL (lowest to highest needle swing)


NOTE: The DVE Subwoofer output is about 10 dB higher than the Toshiba Internal 5.1 Subwoofer test tone, so based on my sonic & LFE air, wall, couch & floor moving experience with my HD DVDs, ... I didn't change the Subwoofer the setting.
================================

Afterwards, I played Sahara and raised the YAMAHA 6CH (Analog) VOL CNTRL until one of the Fast LFE Peak = 104-106 dB, the VOL CNTRL Display = -20.5 dB which would be approx. -10 dB below REF LEVEL (DVE REF LEVEL = -10.5)

So, looks like in my case & equipment, the Toshiba Internal 5.1 Test Tones are within MFG. SPECs approx. ±2 dB vs. Digital Video Essentials Audio REFERENCE Test Tones.

Obviously, the Toshiba Test Tones is louder vs. DVE, ...

TOSHIBA HD-A1 5.1 Internal Test Tones
YAMAHA 6CH (Analog) VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -36.5 dB


Digital Video Essentials 5.1 Test Tones
YAMAHA 6CH (Analog) VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -10.5 dB REF LEVEL


FOR COMPARISON:
COAX SPDIF Digital Video Essentials 5.1 Test Tones
YAMAHA VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -16.5 dB REF LEVEL


YAMAHA INTERNAL 6.1 Test Tones
VOL CNTRL DISPLAY: -21.0 dB REF LEVEL


... but once I matched their respective SPLs = 75 dB, ... the final results were not that far off - and overall, after the DVE results, ... the sound didn't really change any of the original DD+ sonic impact, 360-degree seamless surround sound effects and outstanding dialog clarity!!! Posted Image

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#13 of 30 Brian_Pete

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Posted August 14 2006 - 05:48 AM

Phil,

I like the idea of changing the Toshiba settings to match speaker distances, size, crossover, etc. to match my room. Any idea why some users would leave the Toshiba with the default settings?.

#14 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 14 2006 - 07:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_Pete
Phil,

I like the idea of changing the Toshiba settings to match speaker distances, size, crossover, etc. to match my room. Any idea why some users would leave the Toshiba with the default settings?.

Brian, some feel that Calibrating the Audio is easier if you just completely bypass the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker Settings (SPRK = Large / Crossover = 120 Hz / Distance for all speakers = 0) and use their favorite Calibration DVD along with their respective AV Receiver / Amp Unit to adjust the SPLs, Speaker Distance, etc.

FYI: Here's the following recommended Test Tones playback SPLs:

1) AV Receivers / AMP = 75 dBc
2) DVDs: Dolby Labs EX; VE & DVE = 75 dBc
3) DVDs: AVIA & Sound & Vision = 85 dBc

It just occured to me that Toshiba's Test Tone might be using the Professional SPL Standard = 85 dBc.

If it is, then my VOL CNTR DISPLAY would be approx. -26.5 dB and the LFE Subwoofer SPL would be approx. 92 - 93 dB SPL, ... like my DVE results. Posted Image I might check that out tonight sometime.

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#15 of 30 marano

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Posted August 14 2006 - 02:12 PM

I was told by Toshiba support that their settings can not be bypassed and by Rotel that only the sound levels are applied to my 1057's analog inputs so you need to set the distance, speaker size, and cross-over

#16 of 30 Paul Arnette

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Posted August 15 2006 - 06:11 AM

Frank,

Just to be clear, Toshiba said their settings can not be bypassed period or only by your Rotel?
Universal Blu-ray Discs I will not be buying while they're offered only as Blu-ray + DVD 'flipper' discs:

The Jackal
, Out of Africa, and Traffic.

#17 of 30 Cees Alons

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Posted August 15 2006 - 07:19 AM

Frank,

I think Phil is suggesting to effectively bypass the settings of the A1 by setting them to extreme values (speakers large, crossover 120Hz, distance 0). Isn't that possible?


Cees

#18 of 30 Phil Iturralde

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Posted August 15 2006 - 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Frank,

I think Phil is suggesting to effectively bypass the settings of the A1 by setting them to extreme values (speakers large, crossover 120Hz, distance 0). Isn't that possible?


Cees
Cees is correct! Once you've set the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker settings to:

1) Size = Large
2) Crossover = 120 Hz
3) Distance = 0

... then your AV RECeiver / AMP Settings becomes the priority.

-----

This discussion got me thinking (yeah dangerous exercise Posted Image) early this morning and I changed the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker Setting Crossover = 120 Hz - I left everything else as noted above.

Why you ask???

I remembered an article I read back in 1998 - 1999 by Brent Butterworth in Home Theater Magazine that proved that if 2 Crossovers (Subwoofer & AV REC/AMP) are relatively close to each other, ... it would impact the smooth transition between the lower frequencies on up near that crossover frequency.

For example, he proved w/SPL graph, ... that when both (Sub and AV REC/AMP) crossovers were set @ 80 Hz, the frequency between 70-100 Hz dipped down around

... -10+ dB!!!

Just turning-OFF one of the two crossovers (subwoofer crossover or if your sub does not have a crossover bypass switch, ... choosing the highest crossover in the AV REC/AMP) removed that -10+ dB dip, to a much more livable -2 dB to -3 dB FREQ transition between 70-100 Hz.

Well, my Yamaha RX-V1300 has a FIXED 90 Hz Crossover, (can't bypass it - I bypassed my SVS 25-31PCi crossover) ... so, I went back and changed the Toshiba 5.1 Speaker Setting Crossover ...

FROM 80 Hz ,...
TO 120 Hz

Afterwards, I replayed the bombastic beginning of Sahara HD DVD @ -10 dB below REF LEVELs (w/Fast LFE SPLs Peaks = 106 dBc) and sure enough, ... the upper bass and lower mids improved markedly!!! Yeah, I made a mistake!!! Posted Image

Oh well, at least I can justify (think wife) re-watching my 5-HD DVDs again!!! (... really dear, ... I changed the Toshiba's 5.1 Speaker Setup Crossover Setting, and I need to verify it's correct!!! Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image)

Phil
My HT Enthusiasts Google Website
---- Toshiba 62HM196 62" 1080p DLP HDTV pic's (#1 in Consumer Reports)
DVD Aficionado (DVDAF) on-going list.
Acquisition Rule #59 “Free advice is seldom cheap.” (Quark @ DS9)
JBL S-Series + SVS 25-31PCi (SN: 00034) w/NSD Upgrade!

#19 of 30 marano

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Posted August 15 2006 - 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Frank,

Just to be clear, Toshiba said their settings can not be bypassed period or only by your Rotel?

I believe they can not be bypassed period - This is exactly what they said:

"There are not setting that bypass the players. For further assistance, I recommend contacting our Customer Solutions Department at 1-800-631-3811. They are available Mon-Fri, 8AM to 7PM Central time."

#20 of 30 marano

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Posted August 15 2006 - 01:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cees Alons
Frank,

I think Phil is suggesting to effectively bypass the settings of the A1 by setting them to extreme values (speakers large, crossover 120Hz, distance 0). Isn't that possible?


Cees

I believe this is only possible if your analog inputs apply bass management. From my limited understanding if your receiver/processor does not apply bass management you are effectively setting your speakers to large which negates the crossover setting and distance to 0 by using the above settings.


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