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Syndicated cuts, music substitutions..it's all good


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#41 of 93 OFFLINE   Bryan^H

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Posted July 26 2006 - 10:35 AM

Syndicated cuts are not that bad. That is the point I'm trying to make. You purists act as if major themes are overlooked. They are not. Syndicated cuts will not leave you in the dark or leave you going "huh, what did I miss. Prove to me one episode of a syndicated show that you were confused of because of 12 seconds here or 8 second there were missing and you missed important information. I watched an episode of Miami Vice recently on dvd, (Little Prince) and you know what the syndicated cut on TVLand was better. On the uncut version from dvd there was this long scene of a lady walking through a mansion looking for someone and it really lagged and made that scene move at a snails pace. The syndicated cut must have cut almost 40 seconds of what I will call nothing. no dialouge, no action..just nothing. That is basically what syndicated cuts are they just cut out the fat of the episode, not the meat.

Holy cow people, when you watch a movie on dvd that has deleted scenes, do you watch the deleted scenes, and freak out because they weren't in the movie? Well guess what, most times deleted scenes aren't in the movie for the simple reason of studio time restraints. The director would have liked to keep it in the movie, but couldn't because of the running time. Syndicated cuts are basically the same thing. Do you boycott movies on dvd because it's not the whole package and the deleted scenes aren't in it? I forgot who I was addressing..sorry, of course you do.

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#42 of 93 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted July 26 2006 - 11:51 AM

So you would rather have syndicated cuts that are NOT how the show aired originally? This is not supplementary material we're talking about. The material was there originally, it was broadcast on TV, it is in the original negative, it is the original version of the show. The syndicated version is a bastardization of the original intent. Period.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#43 of 93 OFFLINE   Bryan^H

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Posted July 26 2006 - 12:57 PM

This thread was a bad idea. We can bicker forever about what's better,(I have already said multiple times that I prefer uncut episodes) and this going back and forth is just pointless. I'm thinking about buying Alf on dvd, hence the reason for this thread, and the negative response to those season sets of Alf got me wondering what I'm holding out for, considering I watch syndicated stuff all the time on tv and don't think anything of it. Why the heck would it bother me if I bought a season set that's cut?

I'll just wait for the uncut seasons of Alf on dvd. Ummm...wait a second that's probably never gonna happen, at least in my lifetime. So yes, I am going to support a syndicated release on dvd.

I'm done with this debate, you guys win.

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#44 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 26 2006 - 01:40 PM

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#45 of 93 OFFLINE   Linda Thompson

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Posted July 26 2006 - 03:54 PM

Quote:
Syndicated cuts will not leave you in the dark or leave you going "huh, what did I miss. Prove to me one episode of a syndicated show that you were confused of because of 12 seconds here or 8 second there were missing and you missed important information.

One case in point immediately springs to mind:

MacGyver - "Serenity"

Mac's coming off a mission, totally worn out...he NEEDS a break. Pete's dropping him off at the houseboat, and the two are having a heated argument because Pete has committed Mac to another immediate assignment, and Mac is quite angered.

Pete leaves in a huff. Mac enters the houseboat and starts playing back his answering machine messages. Every single one of them is from somebody wanting something from him...Dalton wants to rope him into a land/ranch deal, and Penny's got a part in a Western-themed show at the Frontier Room, and wants Mac to listen to the song she'll be singing...which she leaves on the tape, of course.

Mac turns the machine off in disgust, pops in a VHS of a Western, and starts to doze off on the sofa, where he dreams the rest of the episode... You guessed it...it's a Western...involving a land deal with Dalton, Penny as a saloon hostess, and a confrontation with Pete.

The dream is the backbone of the episode, and the answering machine messages are a very large part of the springboard and the setup for the dream.

One sydicated cut which I have completely leaves out the segment with the answering machine... Mac enters the houseboat and immediately pops the VHS into the VCR and collapses onto the couch.

If anyone honestly doesn't comprehend why it matters that this segment is missing, or if they simply won't admit that it actually DOES change a significant aspect of the intended structure and setup of the original, then that's just...sad. Posted Image

Yes, the episode is watchable without the missing segment...but it does suffer from the loss. I can't imagine anyone convincing themselves that it doesn't.

#46 of 93 OFFLINE   george kaplan

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Posted July 26 2006 - 04:14 PM

I don't know why people think the word "complete" should imply unedited episodes, intuitively I'd NEVER assume that is what they mean when they put on the set. Before I even picked up my very first "complete" season set or even began reading much about them, my idea of complete was that every episode from the season was there
Well, then by your definition, a collection of 1 minute excerpts from every episode would qualify as complete.

I go back to my Shakespeare example. I think if you saw something called the Complete Works of Shakespeare, most people would expect that it not just be every play he wrote, but also complete editions of all those plays.

Syndicated cuts are not that bad. That is the point I'm trying to make.

As far as edits not hurting the overall show, if you find some cuts don't hurt then that's your opinion. But I'm willing to bet at some point you would find the cuts hurt. And of course, where that threshold is, is going to be different for everybody. And the only way to insure that everyone's threshold is met, is to have zero cuts. It's a matter of principle.

I have to assume at some point even you would find the editing egregious. How about a 10 minute, colorized, and dubbed into Croatian episode. Is that still OK? If not, how the hell can you draw a line that we're all supposed to be happy with? The only such line I can think of is a line in the sand - no cuts whatsoever!
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#47 of 93 OFFLINE   Michael Alden

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Posted July 26 2006 - 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
This thread was a bad idea. We can bicker forever about what's better,(I have already said multiple times that I prefer uncut episodes) and this going back and forth is just pointless. I'm thinking about buying Alf on dvd, hence the reason for this thread, and the negative response to those season sets of Alf got me wondering what I'm holding out for, considering I watch syndicated stuff all the time on tv and don't think anything of it. Why the heck would it bother me if I bought a season set that's cut?

I'll just wait for the uncut seasons of Alf on dvd. Ummm...wait a second that's probably never gonna happen, at least in my lifetime. So yes, I am going to support a syndicated release on dvd.

I'm done with this debate, you guys win.


Why not just record them to DVDR yourself off-air? You get the same cut shows and at least you don't have to support an inferior release. And if missing scenes don't bother you then I am sure network bugs, crawls and squeezed credits probably don't bother you either.

#48 of 93 OFFLINE   Chris Wall

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Posted July 27 2006 - 02:39 AM

While you may not believe complete means every episode there if one tries to sue the studi for false advertising, the studio's lawyers will probably be able to beat one with that claim. Now, since some sets have listed inflated running times on the back of the box that could be a winable battle.

Like I said earlier if I find one or two episodes having a slight 30 second edit I'm not going to get all up in arms about it or if the second part of the two parter takes out the begining recap, no big dealo to me. If it is as originally broadcast, does that mean they should have the end voice over hyping an upcoming sporting event.

#49 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 27 2006 - 04:47 AM

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Well, then by your definition, a collection of 1 minute excerpts from every episode would qualify as complete.
Yes it would - It would be a "Complete Series" of 1 minute episodes. That's what these DVD sets are touting. The sets say "Complete" in reference to the number of shows - Not the length of each show.

Complete means every show from that series is included in the set. It has nothing to do with running times...at least not in a legal/marketing sense.

You keep interjecting your own definition on what "Complete" means and that is the arguement I am arguing against.


Now the problem with 1 minute TV show segments is, those are not considered full 'episodes' - Syndicated episodes are considered full episodes....maybe not by your definition, but as far as the TV industry is conserned, they are.

Look, I'm not saying that selling syndicated epsiodes is great, I'm just saying there's nothing wrong or false about a DVD set (with syndicated episodes) being labeled as "Compltete" - There is nothing flase about that labeling.

#50 of 93 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted July 27 2006 - 05:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
You keep interjecting your own definition on what "Complete" means and that is the arguement I am arguing against.

I don't see anybody doing that except you, Mark.

Look the word "complete" up in a dictionary. You'll find that it means "containing all parts or elements," or something similar. You won't find anything about number of episodes of a television series. This caveat is certainly not listed on the packaging of any "complete" television series DVD I've bought, so where are you pulling it from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
Look, I'm not saying that selling syndicated epsiodes is great, I'm just saying there's nothing wrong or false about a DVD set (with syndicated episodes) being labeled as "Compltete" - There is nothing flase about that labeling.

Syndicated episodes are missing footage. It is most certainly wrong, false, and flat-out incorrect to label a program that is missing footage as being "complete."
 

 


#51 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 27 2006 - 06:05 AM

Quote:
I don't see anybody doing that except you, Mark.
Not at all.
Quote:
so where are you pulling it from?
I'm pulling it from the knowledge of advertising. When they say "Complete" they are not talking about edited or unedited episodes.

Whether you agree or disagree with this logic, is a moot point - I'm telling you that this is what it means when a DVD set says "Complete".

You don't buy "Grape Nut" cereal looking for grapes and nuts Posted Image And when a DVD set says "Complete", it means that all episodes are in the set (edited or unedited).

You guys keep trying to put more meaning into the word, which you shouldn't be. That's not what these sets mean when they say "Complete". Stop trying to force your definition of what the word means because that's not what it means (in respect to these sets).

Again, we're not arguing the definition of the word, we're arguing what it means on a DVD set.


Let me give you an example:
I own all of the Star Wars figures that came out during the 1997 release. I threw out all of the packaging and lost a lot of the accesories (i.e. guns). Now I consider myself to have a complete set of action figures, even though I do not have the guns and boxes. Obviously it's not a complete set in the sense that I own everything, but I own every character, so I actually DO have a complete set.

#52 of 93 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted July 27 2006 - 06:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
Not at all.I'm pulling it from the knowledge of advertising. When they say "Complete" they are not talking about edited or unedited episodes.

Whether you agree or disagree with this logic, is a moot point - I'm telling you that this is what it means when a DVD set says "Complete".

Is the consumer supposed to have this insider knowledge? Because if he's not, then how is he supposed to know that the meaning of the word "complete," as used on the DVD packaging, is different than the ordinary dictionary definition of the word?

Quote:
You guys keep trying to put more meaning into the word, which you shouldn't be. That's not what these sets mean when they say "Complete". Stop trying to force your definition of what the word means because that's not what it means (in respect to these sets).

"We guys" are using the standard definition of the word that can be found in any dictionary. Again, you are the one who is arguing for a specialized definition of the word with a unique meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
Again, we're not arguing the definition of the word, we're arguing what it means on a DVD set.

"The definition of the word" and "what it means" are the same thing.
 

 


#53 of 93 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted July 27 2006 - 06:16 AM

Sorry, duplicate post.
 

 


#54 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 27 2006 - 07:25 AM

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Is the consumer supposed to have this insider knowledge? Because if he's not, then how is he supposed to know that the meaning of the word "complete," as used on the DVD packaging, is different than the ordinary dictionary definition of the word?
And how is someone supposed to know that "Grape Nuts" cereal doesn't contain grapes or nuts? According to the definition, Grape Nuts should have grapes and nuts in the box.

The average consumer isn't supposed to have this "Insider Knowledge" because the average consumer doesn't delve so far into the exact meaning of "Complete" - Just as people by pan and scan titles. They cost the same as widescreen DVD's even though a lot of the picture is missing.

Just because a DVD is P&S, doesn't make it 'incomplete' - it's still a complete movie, it may not be a complete frame, but it's most definitely a complete movie.

#55 of 93 OFFLINE   AnthonyC

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Posted July 27 2006 - 07:49 AM

According to dictionary.com, complete means...

Quote:
Having all necessary or normal parts, components, or steps; entire: a complete meal.

If you don't consider parts cut in syndication to be necessary, then really, why buy TV DVDs in the first place? Just watch the syndicated reruns.

Honestly, how can it be justified that a word has a different meaning when being used in a specific industry? Say that you call the exterminator for a complete sanitation of your house, but they only take out 95% of the roaches? Are you going to accept that? Is that complete?

I'm sorry, but to me, to think that a "complete" season can contain edited episodes is no different than thinking that interactive menus, subtitles, and previews are considered bonus features. We all know that's just a cop-out.

Quote:
Prove to me one episode of a syndicated show that you were confused of because of 12 seconds here or 8 second there were missing and you missed important information.

The Simpsons episode "E-I-E-I-(Annoyed Grunt)" has the resolution all but cut out in syndication.

#56 of 93 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted July 27 2006 - 07:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
And how is someone supposed to know that "Grape Nuts" cereal doesn't contain grapes or nuts? According to the definition, Grape Nuts should have grapes and nuts in the box.

He is supposed to know that because the a box of "Grape Nuts" cereal doesn't actually say that it "contains grapes and nuts." Rather, it says that it contains a "natural wheat and barley cereal" that happens to be named "Grape Nuts." Further, the actual contents of the box are pictured prominently on the front, and the ingredients list is right there on the side, informing anyone who cares to read it of exactly what he can expect to find in a box of "Grape Nuts" cereal.

On the other hand, I've never seen a television show DVD list its contents as explicitly as does a box of "Grape Nuts" cereal. Do you know of any sydication-version television show DVDs that inform the consumer that the show contained within is, in fact, edited? If there are such DVDs, they are certainly the exception rather than the rule.

Quote:
The average consumer isn't supposed to have this "Insider Knowledge" because the average consumer doesn't delve so far into the exact meaning of "Complete" - Just as people by pan and scan titles. They cost the same as widescreen DVD's even though a lot of the picture is missing.

That the average consumer is oblivous to this problem does not mean that it is non-existent.

Further, your comparison of syndication-version television show DVDs to pan-and-scan DVDs is specious, as (excepting the very rare packaging error) there are no pan-and-scan DVDs that are advertised as containing the program in its original aspect ratio.

Quote:
Just because a DVD is P&S, doesn't make it 'incomplete' - it's still a complete movie, it may not be a complete frame, but it's most definitely a complete movie.

Now we are just arguing semantics.

The running time of the movie certainly is complete, as you assert.

The frame is not, also per your assertion.

However, that frame is an integral part of the entity known as the "movie." I submit that it would therefore indeed be incorrect to claim that a pan-and-scan DVD contains a "complete movie"--it does not, as parts of the frame are missing. Those parts of the frame are a part of the movie; to remove them is to render the movie incomplete.
 

 


#57 of 93 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted July 27 2006 - 08:54 AM

Quote:
On the other hand, I've never seen a television show DVD list its contents as explicitly as does a box of "Grape Nuts" cereal. Do you know of any sydication-version television show DVDs that inform the consumer that the show contained within is, in fact, edited? If there are such DVDs, they are certainly the exception rather than the rule.

"ALF", seasons 2 and 3. And I think they may be lying there, because reports of the running times have some episodes running under 20 minutes.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#58 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 27 2006 - 10:13 AM

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Now we are just arguing semantics.
Which is what everyone else is doing by comparing complete episodes to complete series. They both use the word "complete" yet are two different things.
Quote:
However, that frame is an integral part of the entity known as the "movie." I submit that it would therefore indeed be incorrect to claim that a pan-and-scan DVD contains a "complete movie"--it does not, as parts of the frame are missing. Those parts of the frame are a part of the movie; to remove them is to render the movie incomplete.
A Complete P&S Movie. What's wrong with saying that? That is a perfectly correct statement.

If I have a hamburger, I can call it a "Complete Hamburger" - If I take the bun away I can no longer call the hamburger a "Complete Hamburger", but what I CAN call it, is a "Complete Burger".

Meaning, a syndicated epsiode may no longer be a "Complete Episode", but a series of "Syndicated Episodes" is still a "Complete Series".

Semantics? Not really. It's only semantics if you choose to believe that "Complete Series" means "Complete Episodes".

I guess that's where our arguments lie, and since no one is willing to budge, I'll end it.
Quote:
the actual contents of the box are pictured prominently on the front, and the ingredients list is right there on the side, informing anyone who cares to read it of exactly what he can expect to find in a box of "Grape Nuts" cereal.
Yeah, that's mainly because food products adhere to a stricter set of standards as far as what must be printed on the box. DVD's don't, but I would love them to. It would be nice to make them put (on the set) wether the episodes are syndicated or not.

#59 of 93 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted July 27 2006 - 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkHastings
Semantics? Not really. It's only semantics if you choose to believe that "Complete Series" means "Complete Episodes".

That's what it means because it implies that nothing has been removed from the original version. Not one frame of footage. If anything is missing, the statement becomes a lie.

Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#60 of 93 OFFLINE   MarkHastings

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Posted July 27 2006 - 11:28 AM

So do you disagree with the following statment: "Complete Syndicated Series"?


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