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Discover Deep Bass


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39 replies to this topic

#21 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 24 2006 - 01:00 AM

Thank you for the information Jack.
Since I'm getting sound down in the "teens" It couldnt be a true dipole sub.

#22 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 24 2006 - 02:29 AM

It can take as many as four of a given driver in dipole to match the deep bass output of just a single sealed example. The very cancellations that give dipole its sound (best I've heard) make it tough to get loud and deep due to the ease with which cancellations occur at long, deep wavelengths.
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#23 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 24 2006 - 02:44 AM

Just for chuckles,

Another question for you in that case.If one were to take two single driver subs,one at 0 phase on the dial and the second at 180 degree's.Stack them one on top of the other.Would you then have a dipole effect? And if so,would the cancellation effect be the same as having them mounted in the same enclosure?

BTW,in case I didnt mention it,thanks for your time. Posted Image

#24 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 24 2006 - 03:48 AM

Quote:
Another question for you in that case.If one were to take two single driver subs,one at 0 phase on the dial and the second at 180 degree's.Stack them one on top of the other.Would you then have a dipole effect? And if so,would the cancellation effect be the same as having them mounted in the same enclosure?
Interesting question. I'm not sure if a phase control has the same effect over the entire range as actually wiring them in opposite phase. If indeed they were in opposite phase and firing opposite so that the nulls are to the sides, then it'd be the same as having both drivers in the same cab.
Having said that, there's no benefit toward having two sealed opposite-phase drivers so mounted compared to having just a single driver mounted on an open baffle. Either way, the front and rear waves are out of phase, it's just taking more drivers to do it in boxes since each is "wasting" its back wave. With the boxes, it's tougher to get a large baffle so as to extend the effective lower limit of a dipole sub (by lengthening the path between front and back waves). In addition, from the Linkwitz link above:

Quote:
There is not much sense in building a dipole speaker with two small closed box speakers driven in opposite phase, when one of the objectives is to remove the sound character that boxes imparts.

My Adire DPL-12 U-frame is as simple as it gets, no box, no nuthin':

Posted Image

Quote:
BTW,in case I didnt mention it,thanks for your time.
My pleasure, sir.
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#25 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 24 2006 - 08:51 AM

Hmm,
Your giving me ideas for that spare deep bass driver I have sitting around. Posted Image

#26 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan Pummill

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Posted July 24 2006 - 09:31 AM

Howdy M,

I wonder what you would call my Martin Logan Depth sub, an unusual arrangement of speakers to say the least!!

Depth employs a novel BalancedForce configuration, in which three identical drivers are spaced precisely 120 degrees apart on the cabinet. Their reaction force vectors exactly balance at the center point for near-total cancellation, reducing spurious cabinet radiation by as much as 25 dB (a power factor of more than 300:1).

And it looks like this:
http://www.us.martin...ntro/depth.html

Great match for my maggies!!
SLEEPY AL
MAGGIE MAGIC!!

#27 of 40 OFFLINE   ChrisBee

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Posted July 24 2006 - 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Pummill
Howdy M,

Depth employs a novel BalancedForce configuration, in which three identical drivers are spaced precisely 120 degrees apart on the cabinet. Their reaction force vectors exactly balance at the center point for near-total cancellation, reducing spurious cabinet radiation by as much as 25 dB (a power factor of more than 300:1).


Call it what you like, but what is special about using a 3 drivers @ 120 degree configuration when cancelling forces of opposing linear motors?

Two opposed @ 180 degrees is surely as effectve as (say) 3 @ 120 degree, 4 @ 90 degree or any other combination adding up to 360 degrees.

Three drivers 120 degrees apart just helps to cancel the loads from 3 drivers if you need to use 3 drivers. There is nothing magical going on here.

Calling it a fancy name must make every IB manifold out there a Balanced Force configuration. 12 dancing Shivas anybody? Posted Image

#28 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 24 2006 - 10:02 AM

Howdy P,

Aye,I've heard from more then one source that the ML subs are a great match for the Maggies.
I was happy with my IB until I picked up this M&K and got it back from refurb.Its a very good mix with my Maggies and also gives me that window rattleing during movies.
Now I find myself with an extra driver,and have decided to try a DIY sub.I'm trying to understand SUB theory in relationship to dipoles.My "old" brain is having a hard time with it Posted Image

#29 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 25 2006 - 12:04 AM

Quote:
I wonder what you would call my Martin Logan Depth sub, an unusual arrangement of speakers to say the least!!
The drivers are mounted in such a way as to cancel reactive forces (as pointed out, something most IB-ers do so they don't directly transfer all the vibration to their wall/baffle)), but it's still a monopole sub.

Quote:
I'm trying to understand SUB theory in relationship to dipoles.My "old" brain is having a hard time with it
All kinds of stuff to digest on the Linkwitz site, but the main thing to remember is that you want a big baffle and don't try to get below 40Hz unless you have lots and lots of drivers. A single driver isn't going to do much, but might give you an idea. Some drivers are more suited than others, also.
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#30 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 25 2006 - 01:39 AM

Thanks Jack,

You are,as always a wealth of information on subs.Posted Image

#31 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 25 2006 - 05:50 AM

Sho' thang.
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#32 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 26 2006 - 01:46 AM

This gets more interesting by the minute.Yesterday I returned to the place I had purchased the sub from.I told them I had taken the sub in for a full refurb and showed them the dead driver.

They are going to send the driver out for a rebuild at no charge.This will give me 2 "discover deep bass" drivers for my DIY project.

Sometimes,I just think I live right Posted Image

#33 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 26 2006 - 02:32 AM

Cool. See if you can get specs on the driver...
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#34 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 26 2006 - 09:01 AM

I have called M&K to get specs on the driver Jack.So far,the only thing I'm sure of ,they are dual voice coil driver ,8 ohm.I left a message asking for the specs.Hopefully they will return my call with the info.

I also made a stop during my travels today.I stopped in burbank at a place called speaker world.They are known for having all the parts one needs to DIY speakers,be they full range,subs,etc.

I figured they may have some suggestions for the sub ,and I was willing to spend some money there on an amp and maybe parts for a box.

After less then 1 minute explaining that I had an M&K driver to start a DIY project.I was told"sorry,we have nothing that will work and we only sell parts for our own stuff.I started to ask about the standard box sizes I've read about on some sites and was quickly interupted and told"nope ,sorry,we have nothing that will work,bye".

The gentlemans demeaner was so unprofessional and rude,I made a promise never to recommend them and insure my friends never visit them. Its no wonder the store was empty.Speaker World will never get 1 penny from me or anyone I know. (sorry for the rant.I've just never been treated to rudely).

#35 of 40 OFFLINE   Seth=L

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Posted July 26 2006 - 11:16 AM

That is so weird. I was under the impression that Speaker World was a ''mom and pop" store, but we have one in my city of Fort Wayne, IN. What is even more weird is they have two employees, father and son, and they to are very rude and quite snobbish. Does the Speaker World there have a bunch of new old stock Sansui and other such things because mine does. I suppose it is possible there is more than one ''mom and pop'' store called Speaker World (not very original), with rude staff, and possibly weird new old stock Sansui and Sherwood stuff that is so cruelly over priced that you have no clue as to how they stay in business. I mean, this world really isn't to big so it's possible. (I too apologize for the rant).

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#36 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 27 2006 - 12:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan M
I have called M&K to get specs on the driver Jack.So far,the only thing I'm sure of ,they are dual voice coil driver ,8 ohm.I left a message asking for the specs.Hopefully they will return my call with the info.

I also made a stop during my travels today.I stopped in burbank at a place called speaker world.They are known for having all the parts one needs to DIY speakers,be they full range,subs,etc.

I figured they may have some suggestions for the sub ,and I was willing to spend some money there on an amp and maybe parts for a box.

After less then 1 minute explaining that I had an M&K driver to start a DIY project.I was told"sorry,we have nothing that will work and we only sell parts for our own stuff.I started to ask about the standard box sizes I've read about on some sites and was quickly interupted and told"nope ,sorry,we have nothing that will work,bye".

The gentlemans demeaner was so unprofessional and rude,I made a promise never to recommend them and insure my friends never visit them. Its no wonder the store was empty.Speaker World will never get 1 penny from me or anyone I know. (sorry for the rant.I've just never been treated to rudely).

That sucks. He may have tuned you out at the mention of "standard box sizes", but that's no reason to be rude. Posted Image You'd definitely need the parameters of the driver to get an idea of how it might work in a box. The vast majority of commercial subs use heavy, specific electronic equalization to achieve a desired frequency response, which is why drivers or amps so sourced are a kind of long-shot in a DIY project...neither is intended to work without the other. With some basic specs, though, we can get an idea of what is possible.
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#37 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted July 27 2006 - 01:03 AM

Thanks Jack,

Hopefully I'll get that call today with all the specs needed.

#38 of 40 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted July 28 2006 - 03:36 AM

If not, we'll get you into a nice driver to play with. DIY is too much fun. Posted Image
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#39 of 40 OFFLINE   Seth=L

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Posted August 11 2006 - 06:31 AM

Just out of curiosity, can you order super fast woofers with magnetic sheilding for any model? I would think you could considering the sheilding doesn't change the sound. I would like to get the sub a little closer to the front line, but my CRT won't allow the sub within 3 foot of it.

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#40 of 40 OFFLINE   Alan M

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Posted August 11 2006 - 08:57 AM

I believe you can Seth.Although you'd have to remove the jumper wire and not use it on the super fast drivers.

Someone else had called M&K on an older sub they have.M&K had told that person the new drivers wont make any improvement in sound.Just the shielding.


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