-

Jump to content



Sign up for a free account!

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and you won't get the popup ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

New SVS Sealed Sub


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
99 replies to this topic

#1 of 100 SethH

SethH

    Screenwriter

  • 2,867 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 17 2003

Posted June 17 2006 - 02:02 AM

I'm really surprised this hasn't been discussed yet. SVS announced on their news page that they are about to begin pre-orders for their first sealed sub. It is a 14" cube with the new 12.3 driver in it. It will run between $700 and $800 dollars.

I, for one, am certainly looking forward to Ed Mullen getting his hands on one of these so we can find out what it's capable of.

Here's the link:
http://svsound.com/news-news.cfm

#2 of 100 Jack Gilvey

Jack Gilvey

    Producer

  • 4,952 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 13 1999

Posted June 17 2006 - 02:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SethH
I'm really surprised this hasn't been discussed yet. SVS announced on their news page that they are about to begin pre-orders for their first sealed sub. It is a 14" cube with the new 12.3 driver in it. It will run between $700 and $800 dollars.

I, for one, am certainly looking forward to Ed Mullen getting his hands on one of these so we can find out what it's capable of.

Same here...a sealed sub with SVS's know-how is an interesting proposition. The market is flooded with little subs who's only claim is to size...we'll see how this one changes things. Ed would be the guy to tell it like it is, of course.
I think they might even hit their timeline, which is unusual in this market.
SVS Customer Service
http://www.svsound.com
sales@svsound.com
techsupport@svsound.com

#3 of 100 John Garcia

John Garcia

    Executive Producer

  • 11,532 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 24 1999
  • Real Name:John
  • LocationNorCal

Posted June 17 2006 - 02:54 AM

Well, it said they were in development for almost 2 years on it, and they kept it relatively quiet. My sub is larger than a 16-46, so size isn't a concern to me, but I'm still really interested in hearing a review (Ed) of this sub Posted Image
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#4 of 100 Rudi B

Rudi B

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 143 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted June 17 2006 - 06:59 AM

I built a similiar design little sealed cube with a SS RL-I12 driver (a TC Sounds TC2+). It was actually sonically very similiar to the PB12/2+ except when it came to the deep stuff - obviously.

The "punchy" characterstic of this design now serves me well in the trunk of the car. Posted Image

#5 of 100 Jack Gilvey

Jack Gilvey

    Producer

  • 4,952 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 13 1999

Posted June 20 2006 - 11:31 PM

Quote:
Well, it said they were in development for almost 2 years on it, and they kept it relatively quiet.

Seems like it. A sub doesn't need announcements years ahead, it's not a new highway.

Quote:
My sub is larger than a 16-46, so size isn't a concern to me, but I'm still really interested in hearing a review (Ed) of this sub Posted Image

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it does in its class. Some cool features. Not sure how many will use the XLR's, but they're cool, too. Posted Image
SVS Customer Service
http://www.svsound.com
sales@svsound.com
techsupport@svsound.com

#6 of 100 Brent_S

Brent_S

    Second Unit

  • 472 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 05 2000

Posted June 21 2006 - 12:03 PM

Uhm, the press release doesn't actually say it's a 12.3 driver. If TomV wanted to plop one of his existing drivers into a sealed cabinet with some tweaked EQ, he probably could have done that anytime he wanted in the last 6 years.

I will be surprised if the SB12 doesn't use a driver that's optimized for the sealed alignment.

#7 of 100 mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter

  • 1,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted June 21 2006 - 02:20 PM

It will be interesting to find out how this thing sounds but, from experience with a sealed sub, it had better be something unreal or it will fall short on performance for H.T. I have a Velodyne HGS 10 that had good output in my old house but in my dedicated home theater on carpet over concrete, it just dies. I know we are talking 10" vs. 12" drivers but I doubt there would be that much more output considering amp power, size, and design. There are some things you just can't beat the law of physics on and enclosure size= better output. I'm no engineer, I can be proven wrong but until I hear from one of our sub experts, I will have to believe that this is going to be a good music sub and nothing else.
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#8 of 100 LanceJ

LanceJ

    Producer

  • 3,168 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 26 2002

Posted June 21 2006 - 05:52 PM

Wow, some of y'all have such stratospheric goals for subs!

I remember when we sold the Cambridge SoundWorks subwoofer back in 1994 and while relatively speaking it wasn't quite as loud as the Cerwin-Vega 10" and AudioSource 12" ported subs in the speaker theater, it most definitely beat the crap out of them depth-wise. An overall clean/rich/rumbly personality. It only had a 140 watt amp for some reason (probably because Henry Kloss was always a bit on the conservative side) so a more potent version would probably be in order for really large rooms. Stereo Review (yea I know not the ultimate in testing but anyway...) said it had useful output down to 20 Hz and I believe it. Unfortunately it was rather overpriced & also not exactly a work of art.

A more recent example of an acoustic-suspension sub I thought sounded excellent and had no problems shaking the room was Martin-Logan's "Descent". It uses three 10" drivers + a 400 watt RMS amp (.07% THD) in a tidy-sized cabinet.

From ML's site:

Quote:
Portless Enclosure

Although ports are a convenient and cost-effective way of increasing low-frequency output, they rely on resonant energy in a way that impairs bass quality. A good sealed system will exhibit less transient-blurring group delay while maintaining smooth, consistent response regardless of output level or voice-coil temperature. Listen carefully to the sound of a bass drum, and you'll hear the difference.

Though I've never heard it, Adire's Rava subwoofer has always received great reviews, though I sure wish they hadn't doubled the price over the nearly-identical first generation version. Posted Image

And I have to get this out: I don't care what the number-crunchers say, similar-sized bass reflex and acoustic-suspension systems do not always sound the same. Again: not their output or depth of response, their sound. I find it weird that on some design sites some writers go through all kinds of mental gymnastics to prove they do, when my own ears have told me numerous times they do NOT.

BTW: compared to bass reflex designs, enclosure size for acoustic-suspension systems doesn't play as big a role in determining its performance. Anybody who's heard one of those Sunfire subs has a good idea of what I'm speaking of.

#9 of 100 mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter

  • 1,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted June 21 2006 - 09:48 PM

Yep, I have heard the Sunfire, it was between it and the Velodyne when I was auditioning subs. The Sunfire sounded bloaty and one-notety. You could hear the cone material vibrate when it reached its limit, similiar to a whoopee cushion. The Velo just stopped getting louder. The cones in these small subs have about four inches of excursion to overcome their size, being pushed by an amp with 1000W R.M.S./3000W peak. This is how they overcome their limited size. I still say i'll believe it when/if I hear it with regards to the SB-01.
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#10 of 100 SethH

SethH

    Screenwriter

  • 2,867 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 17 2003

Posted June 21 2006 - 10:07 PM

Uhm, the press release doesn't actually say it's a 12.3 driver. If TomV wanted to plop one of his existing drivers into a sealed cabinet with some tweaked EQ, he probably could have done that anytime he wanted in the last 6 years.


Sorry, it's not in the press release, but I knew I had read it somewhere. It was actually in a post from Ron over at AVS.

Here's the quote from Ron:
It's a Plus 12.3 woofer in there as some have noted. It was actually designed from the start to work well in both a large vented alignment or a small sealed one. It's really nothing magical (though we naturally feel it's a good woofer). The amp development was (and it's still in its final stages) a difficult thing to wring out and while some might question the rather mild power ratings, I'm confident when like sized products are lined up (even at higher price points) any remaining questions will be resolved.


#11 of 100 Jack Gilvey

Jack Gilvey

    Producer

  • 4,952 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 13 1999

Posted June 22 2006 - 12:12 AM

Quote:
I'm no engineer, I can be proven wrong but until I hear from one of our sub experts, I will have to believe that this is going to be a good music sub and nothing else.
Unlike reflex, sealed subs are limited by the displacement of their drivers and there's only so much a 12" can do. It'll probably not match the low-end output of even their smallest vented, the PB10, but should keep up above 25Hz and should do well in smaller rooms that can augment the sub's natural rolloff. Real testing will tell how it does against others in its small/sealed class. As Ron states:

Quote:
Here's one for you: Sealed doesn't sound "better". At least not to us. "Sealed" can and does provide for a product that's very small, with with good objective performance and features IF it's well executed (it should shock no one that there are some out there that aren't). That's it. No magic, no snake oil, no "fast bass", no "musical" sound... except that which accompanies any sub that plays with low distortion, has good extension, with good power and dynamic headroom, and of course maintains good linearity till the inevitable and controlled roll-off down low (in this case starting in the 20-25hz range which should work well in the small/mid-sized rooms for which it's designed).

So, despite one's personal feelings over sealed/vented, this one exists because it's small, and sealed allows small.
SVS Customer Service
http://www.svsound.com
sales@svsound.com
techsupport@svsound.com

#12 of 100 mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter

  • 1,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted June 22 2006 - 12:45 AM

That is essentially what I have been trying to say, Ron just put it better than I. It is not a personal feeling one way or the other. I know I would prefer smaller rather than larger, even now having more space but not wanting to accommodate that large of a box (that and not having the cash!). I do know I will still get a sub from SVS, just not one of these. My space is simply too large and no small sub is really going to pressurize the room properly.
I know enough to know I don't know enough!

#13 of 100 LanceJ

LanceJ

    Producer

  • 3,168 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 26 2002

Posted June 22 2006 - 09:48 AM

Quote:
The Sunfire sounded bloaty and one-notety. You could hear the cone material vibrate when it reached its limit, similiar to a whoopee cushion. The Velo just stopped getting louder.

I used the Sunfire as a common - and extreme - example of one of those ultra-compact subs, but I never said it sounded the best. And anyway, EVERY sub has its limits and even a $500 15" driver in a 6 cu/ft enclosure will eventually slam against its internal mechanical limiters if pushed too hard.

If any speaker brand made sealed designs look bad IMO it was probably Acoustic Research (this was back in the late 70s/early 80s) . While they had awesome extension for their size, many models reaching further down than most peoples' actual music ever did, gawd were they ever major power sponges. Couple that with their usual 4 ohm impedance and you've got an excellent recipe for blown amp power line fuses, tripping protection circuitry in most mid-fi receivers and blown tweeters because an amp was being pushed past its clean output limits. Certain English speakers also shared some of these qualities but luckily were usually rated at 8 ohms to prevent the really nasty stuff from happening. And in my opinion, most AR's dry and staid sound, unfairly or not, subtly added to the displeasure with the sealed design, helping to put more nails in the acoustic-suspension coffin.

On the other hand............Advent, EPI, Genesis, Boston Acoustics and many other brands that used sealed systems were designed more reasonably (IIRC most of their larger models with 10" drivers made it to "only" the low 30s) and didn't require the monster amps many ARs required. They still weren't as efficient as a bass reflex speaker with a similar-sized woofer, but that was just a relative thing. And for many people their velvety & rich bass was and still is a positive thing. Though I'll admit sophisticated computer-modeling techniques (starting in the early 80s) have allowed reflex designs, which are inherently more complicated to design, to capture some of that special sound.

But by the mid 80s or so, the loudness wars were heating up (and receiver specs were twisted to artificially inflate wattage specs & [just a coincidence?] power meters on receivers had basically disappeared) and anything that didn't contribute to a colon-emptying atmosphere was frowned upon. Posted Image

#14 of 100 MaRtIn^dB

MaRtIn^dB

    Extra

  • 16 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 20 2006

Posted June 22 2006 - 10:24 AM

it'll be interesting to see how this sub will compare to the UFW-12...albeit a little above it in price. With such a small cabinet...it does'nt inspire a lot of confidence. How much amplifier power they'll use is another question. The biggest limitation, of course, will be the Xmax of the driver...the bane of all sealed subwoofers. Undoubtedly, like the ufw12, it'll be highpassed in the 20-25 Hz range...i'd guess at least a 2nd order subsonic. Thus you'll be losing the preferred 2nd order roll off of the sub.

I'm sure that adherents of the sealed sound will use multiples of this sub to boost HT output...like many have done with ufw12. It will probably be less visceral than its vented counterparts down low.

It is my opinion that dual driver configurations are the only way to go with a sealed subwoofer...preferably 15". Too much output and extension is lost versus vented designs. These single driver applications really have to work hard, especially when equalized to low f3's.

While i'm sure this sub will be quite musical, i would'nt expect all-world output...as Jack stated, there is only so much displacement available in a 12" driver.

#15 of 100 LanceJ

LanceJ

    Producer

  • 3,168 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 26 2002

Posted June 22 2006 - 12:04 PM

So this sub won't be usable at all for movies? Posted Image

Or, maybe SVS should build a driver like this for their sealed sub. Posted Image

#16 of 100 MaRtIn^dB

MaRtIn^dB

    Extra

  • 16 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 20 2006

Posted June 22 2006 - 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceJ
So this sub won't be usable at all for movies? Posted Image

Or, maybe SVS should build a driver like this for their sealed sub. Posted Image

It'll be usable for movies but, depending on the roll off (subsonic filter), may not have the tactility of the vented 12" models which can tune down to 16 and even 12 Hz.

The ufw12 incorporates a highpass filter at about 23 Hz, iirc, this results in a *84 dB/octave roll-off slope, as noted by Ed Mullen in his review...as a result, response below 25 Hz falls rapidly...he did'nt even bother to test at 20 Hz!

You'll need a "very" small room to circumvent the steep roll off. In any event, by 16 Hz, where the vented 12's have the port at maximum response, the sealed 12, at this roll off slope, will be only whispering.

Now running two of these will get you more output, but you still won't realize any added extension. The biggest advantage for this sub will be in the regions above 25-30 Hz. A lot of what we call "slam" in movies, occurs from 25-80 Hz, so i'd say that two of them would be quite formidable. That said, there would definitely be less "observed" infrasound than the vented models.

There are few guys that use a ufw12-SVS combination...crossing the svs low and letting it concentrate on frequencies below about 40 Hz...meanwhile the ufw12 does it thing from there, on up to 80 or 100 Hz. There's some advanced integration involved, i'm sure, but some have obtained good results...a best of both worlds approach, if you will.
Posted Image

#17 of 100 Jack Gilvey

Jack Gilvey

    Producer

  • 4,952 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 13 1999

Posted June 23 2006 - 12:53 AM

Quote:
It'll be usable for movies but, depending on the roll off (subsonic filter), may not have the tactility of the vented 12" models which can tune down to 16 and even 12 Hz.
Yeah, this model is an assault on size, not performance, as SVS states. Nothing really special or magical claimed, just a well-executed/engineered machine which should compete rather well in its small, sealed class. It's intended for small rooms, which will help flatten the FR down low and give some gain. I'd also expect a filter in the 20-25Hz range, probably second-order. Above 25hz or so, output from a 16hz-tuned reflex is almost purely from the driver, anyway, so output gets closer above that point in general.

Quote:
The ufw12 incorporates a highpass filter at about 23 Hz, iirc, this results in a *84 dB/octave roll-off slope, as noted by Ed Mullen in his review...as a result, response below 25 Hz falls rapidly...he did'nt even bother to test at 20 Hz!
That should be an interesting comparison, if an obvious one. The Onix has been highly touted in subjective reviews as quite "musical" despite its higher-than-reflex group delay and upper-bass non-linearity (both of which have been blamed for amusicality when present in other subwoofers). Directly comparable testing from Ed Mullen would be illustrative, hopefully he gets one.
SVS Customer Service
http://www.svsound.com
sales@svsound.com
techsupport@svsound.com

#18 of 100 LanceJ

LanceJ

    Producer

  • 3,168 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 26 2002

Posted June 23 2006 - 06:26 AM

Thanks Martin. I use my HT system for about 60% music and I watch a lot of old-moldy movies (especially sci-fi and comedy varieties) with only mono soundtracks, so I look at subs differently than most people here.

#19 of 100 Tom Vodhanel

Tom Vodhanel

    Screenwriter

  • 2,188 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 04 1998

Posted June 23 2006 - 08:27 AM

SVS Hi all,

Please don't hesitate to email SVS directly with any questions about the suitability of any SVS/SVSound product for your situation. As most have noted, if you are considering ANY small cube, it should be because you cannot accept a larger enclosure into the room for some reason. A larger subwoofer is always going to offer the potential for more “bang for the buck”. (see Hoffman’s Iron Law ).

If the primary driving force in the purchase decision is budget…then look for the best performing $700-$800 subwoofer you can find(and the SB12 surely isn’t it..Posted Image For exmaple, our own $429 subwoofer will be very close >40-45hz and have a substantial advantage in the 16-32hz octave. But if the primary issue is size…and you are limited to something around 14”(cube)…I do believe the new SB12($699) will offer a combination of size/performance/features that many will consider an attractive value.

Tom V.

#20 of 100 mylan

mylan

    Screenwriter

  • 1,684 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 06 2005

Posted June 23 2006 - 12:10 PM

Thanks for your input Tom, I was wondering when you were going to chime in. I appreciate your honesty. Lance, if you need a small sub for music listening and those"moldy old movies" PM me and we'll talk about setting you up with my Velo so I can get a PB12/plusPosted Image
I know enough to know I don't know enough!


Back to Speakers, Subwoofers & Headphones



Forum Nav Content I Follow