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2001: A Space Odyssey..bits and pieces.


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#61 of 68 OFFLINE   Michael_K_Sr

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Posted June 12 2006 - 08:02 AM

Anybody see that Gyorgi Ligeti passed away today? Everyone remembers the classical Strauss pieces from the soundtrack, but I've always been haunted by Ligeti's creepy score.

#62 of 68 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted June 12 2006 - 08:11 AM

Not a score. His music is all concert work, and Mr. Kubrick used some of it in his film. As for the composer, R.I.P.

#63 of 68 OFFLINE   Seth Paxton

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Posted June 12 2006 - 07:30 PM

Rex, one thing about the "Over" version which I think is relevant is that IIRC there is a scene in Zarathrustra on the tightrope when the jester jumps over the rope walker in a symbolic moment of "improvement" or betterment by him if you will.

Super is meant in it's traditional meaning of over but including, more all encompassing, such as supercede

From Webster online (m-w.com):

Super (prefix)
Etymology: Latin, over, above, in addition, from super over, above, on top of

In American English super has become associated with "greatest", "best", and various forms of power or strength, and not just due to superman. Things like superhuman strength or superior have taken it in that direction. But superscript letters aren't more powerful, greater, or whatever.

Tying his wording closer to the concepts of "going under" and "going over" which are key ingrediants in Zarathrustra is the reason for the "over" translation. It is more about movement within a philosophical existence than a gaining of power or strength or a type of superiority in the sense of comparison/conflict.

It's been a few years, but I took a semester on A.S.Zar. specifically as one of my Humanitarian fulfillments (400 level philosophy for Engineers wasn't typical, but I'm glad I went for it even though it was one of my roughest courses).

Zarathrustra totally changed how I viewed 2001 and while Kubrick might not have directly patterned the film off of it, one can't escape his choice of music first of all and the apparently strong general ties second of all.



Dan or whomever, Also Sprach Zarathrustra is a pretty difficult read and one that I would rely on a companion writing to go through, but if you really dig 2001 you might find it worth it. A Google just on Zarathrusta gets you half-way home with tons of helpful articles and essays about the book.


As for the Nazi's latching onto "superman", they were way off base of Nietzsche's intent IMO and missed the point that the overman would not bother to meddle with limited trivial interests such as war and land possession. That was the whole point in taking that next step. And in a world with Eternal Return there isn't much point to such actions anyway if you have overman awareness.

The Nazi's just co-op'd anything of German heritage in attempt to drum up nationalism.




As for Hal and the "mistake", I have always read it as an intentional lie meant to divert attention away from the sudden suspicion his behavior is creating. Like humans, he goes down a desperate path of lies and violence in an attempt to chase after a solution to a problem that only gets worse with each effort. The first lie requires a second bigger lie or action and so on.

It's almost like HAL becomes the human or takes on the human condition in full due to his contradictory instructions and newfound need for rationalization, and that this in turn frees Bowman to then be guided to the next step and become the overman/Starchild.


My understanding from reading the notes kept by Clarke (on the LD box set) was that the novel and film developed at the same time but remained independent beings because the 2 of them couldn't always agree on where they wanted to take the story. It's not something where one is a version of the other that came after. These are 2 guys both coming up with their own works based off of a common set of brainstorming and early writing sessions.

In fact I thought, but maybe I remember incorrectly, that Clarke went off to finish the novel while Kubrick went off to make the film.


Sucks to hear about Ligeti. That was a brilliantly inspired choice by Kubrick, one of a myriad of course. Posted Image

#64 of 68 OFFLINE   Dan Keliikoa

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Posted June 13 2006 - 12:55 AM

Great discussion going here, nice to see it revived! Posted Image Thanks Seth and all for all the great contributions to our 'bits and pieces' thread of this incredible film (and book).

Ligeti's choral music used in this film was brilliant...and probably about the creepiest music I've ever heard, especially as it crescendos. Extremely appropriate for the material, though.
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#65 of 68 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 18 2006 - 09:44 AM

As to the Paxton comments (post #63),


I was going to do a long(er) spiel on them, but, fortunately, the online "Wikipedia" entry has already done much of the work. Specifically:

Also Sprach Zarathustra

Quote:
[Nietzsche']s work has been described as "half philosophic, half poetic"[citation needed]; the fact that it can thus manage to convince the reader emotionally as well as intellectually is one reason for its appeal among many — but it also means that the theory behind the metaphors is never fully or clearly written out, inviting the reader alone to interpret the text.

One problem inevitably caused by this is that the boundaries of his thinking are not easily discerned: for example, many people not only feel that Nietzsche's term "Übermensch" conjures up the "pure Aryan" of Hitlerian mythology, but further assume that it must have been accompanied by the complementary lesser human or sub-human "Untermensch" — whereas the latter term is in fact a creation of Nazi racial ideology.

Another vulnerability entailed by Nietzsche's style is that nuances and shades of meaning are very easily lost — and all too easily gained — in translation. Here the Übermensch is a case in point: the equivalent "Superman" found in dictionaries and in the translations by Thomas Common and R.J. Hollingdale may create an unfortunate association with the heroic comic-character "Superman" — while other logical alternatives which one might propose ("Over-human", "Above-human", "Super-human", or "Beyond-human"[citation needed]) are either uselessly clumsy or are evidence of a "political correctness" foreign to Nietzsche's outlook. Walter Kaufmann's "Overman" would perhaps be more serviceable — were it not for the overtone of hierarchical authoritarianism it introduces[citation needed]. A little used alternative is "Hyperman"[citation needed]. It is as precise as "Superman" without the pop-political connotations. (The Greek prefix hyper, pronounced more like "hüper", is from the same root and has the same meaning as the Latin prefix super: cf. hüper/super.)

(hyperman? [Hmmmmm], sounds like a young Woody Allen to me.)



Quote:
Tying his wording closer to the concepts of "going under" and "going over" which are key ingrediants in Zarathrustra is the reason for the "over" translation. It is more about movement within a philosophical existence than a gaining of power or strength or a type of superiority in the sense of comparison/conflict.



Excerpts from the part 4 of the text of the Project Gutenberg EBook of Also Sprach Zarathustra


Quote:
Zarathustra aber sahe das Volk an und wunderte sich. Dann sprach er also:

'But Zarathustra looked upon the people and was amazed. Then he spoke thus:'

Der Mensch ist ein Seil, geknüpft zwischen Thier und Übermensch, - ein Seil über einem Abgrunde.

'Man is a rope, knotted between beast and "superman", a rope over an abyss.'

Ein gefährliches Hinüber, ein gefährliches Auf-dem-Wege, ein gefährliches Zurückblicken, ein gefährliches Schaudern und Stehenbleiben.

'A dangerous "crossover", a dangerous "on-the-way", a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous shivering and standing-still.'

Was gross ist am Menschen, das ist, dass er eine Bruecke und kein Zweck ist: was geliebt werden kann am Menschen, das ist, dass er ein _Übergang_ und ein _Untergang_ ist.

'What is great in man is the fact that he is a bridge and not a goal: what can be loved in man is the fact that he is an a way/path above [Übergang] and a way/path below [Untergang] .'


I believe Nietzsche here is using these terms solipsistically as opposites 'way above' : : 'way below'. But there is also a word-play involved here since in the common usage the two don't seem to be strict antonyms. The 'way below' is certain destruction, the most usual meaning of Untergang, whereas the 'way above' is not just a transition or crossing, the usual meaning of Übergang, but the crossing to a recreated self, an "overcome" self. It plays on the fact that über means not only 'over, across' but 'a-b-ove' as well.


The association of the concepts of 'crossing' ("coming over") and 'overcoming' is an old one in Indo-European languages, reaching even into the mythology. Nietzche's is just a modern contribution to that tradition.

I, for one, thoroughly reject "overman". It's artificial and silly-sounding, a failed calque. (Not everything works mechanically.)


Quote:
As for the Nazi's latching onto "superman", they were way off base of Nietzsche's intent IMO and missed the point that the overman would not bother to meddle with limited trivial interests such as war and land possession. That was the whole point in taking that next step. And in a world with Eternal Return there isn't much point to such actions anyway if you have overman awareness.

They conveniently "forgot" that Nietzsche was talking about overcoming the self, not about gross military and political conquest.

Quote:
The Nazi's just co-op'd anything of German heritage in attempt to drum up nationalism.

The point is that Nietzsche's rhetorical style, ambiguous conveyance, and idiosyncratic wording made this extremely easy. I might add that the Nazis did not invent the modern European concept of the "Aryan". It had pre-Nazi, and in fact, pre-German antecedents.

Quote:
As for Hal and the "mistake", I have always read it as an intentional lie meant to divert attention away from the sudden suspicion his behavior is creating. Like humans, he goes down a desperate path of lies and violence in an attempt to chase after a solution to a problem that only gets worse with each effort. The first lie requires a second bigger lie or action and so on.

"O, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."


By the way and just for the record, the character (and the historical figure)'s name is Zarathustra ('having an old camel') (Hellenized as Zoroaster), not Zarathrustra.
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#66 of 68 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted June 18 2006 - 11:23 AM

Orange and Pink on white? Eww. Umm, could you possibly not color your quotations? Thanks.

#67 of 68 OFFLINE   Dan Lindley

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Posted June 22 2006 - 05:28 AM

Lots of great stuff here. Another fun book to get ahold of is "The Making of 2001" I have the Agel tome, but there are others (search Amazon, etc).

As for the tether, you can see that even today, our astronauts are not always tethered, and I think the 2001 space suits had little directional rockets. See the bottom: http://www.guntheran....1-realback.jpg where there seem to be four jets?

Dan
Heck, I reckon you wouldn't even be human beings if you didn't have some pretty strong personal feelings about nuclear combat.

#68 of 68 OFFLINE   Steve Blair

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Posted June 30 2006 - 03:44 PM

2001 and 2010 premier on Hdnet movies Saturday night and I just caught a bit of the commercial. Holy ****! it looked good, like it was filmed last week. I'm catching both tomorrow and then counting the minutes til' the hd dvd release Posted Image


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