Jump to content



Sign up for a free account!

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests to win things like this Logitech Harmony Ultimate Remote and you won't get the popup ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo

4k on a projector...which would you get?


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
24 replies to this topic

#1 of 25 MannyE

MannyE

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 233 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2000

Posted September 12 2001 - 03:41 PM

I'm looking to spend no more than 4K.

I would like to see 80 inches on a 16:9 screen (measured diagonally). D

direct view TV would take over regular TV and screen would be for occasional TV only (like Football and the Superbowl)

At this price point do I have to live with scan lines?

Is considering a used projector out of the question? (as in...Would I have to spend a lot to refurbish or repair a used purchase?)

Also..a general question...of care and maintenance...I am aware of the additional setup and recalibration needed by tube projectors, but I'm assuming that at my price point, I'll only have to worry about LCD and DLP. what are the issues associated with LCD and DLP as far as bulb life, cost of same and interval of replacement?

I ask because what's the use of limiting my price to 4K if it means that I'll be purchasing a projector that needs a $750 bulb every year.... That would be the push I may need to spend a LITTLE more (say 5 or 6)...if the design gave a longer bulb life, and made the cost of ownership less.

TIA!
Ni!!

#2 of 25 NickSo

NickSo

    Producer

  • 4,274 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 02 2000

Posted September 12 2001 - 04:17 PM

I hear you can find a Sony VW10HT for about $4800 USD online...

I saw the LCD projector at a high-end HT store, it was amazing.. ToyStory2 looked spectacular on a 100" screen... it has a native 16:9, so it'd be perfect for DVD viewing...

I dont know that much about projectors, but me and my family were totally impressed by this projector...

------------------
The So Family Home Theater!
http://www.multimani...2/ht/index.html

#3 of 25 Kimmo Jaskari

Kimmo Jaskari

    Screenwriter

  • 1,529 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 27 2000

Posted September 12 2001 - 04:50 PM

The Sony is among the better LCD projectors for home cinema use, and only has one really significant drawback and that is black level (comparatively speaking at any rate). The LCD panel on any LCD projector has a problem stopping the light from the bulb when it is supposed to produce true black; you get a dark grey instead.

However, the perceived black level of the Sony is pretty good, and on every projector sellers favorite demo discs Posted Image ie Toy Story and A Bugs Life (lots of color, not a lot of dark areas) it really shines.

For $4K you could probably get into CRT too if you were content with going with used equipment. CRT's have a lifespan of some 10000 hours, which means you could watch a movie a night for something like 20 years. Drawbacks are the size and weight and cumbersome installation (by comparison to a mostly plug and play LCD), but picture quality on the CRT's are pretty much unbeatable. The latest DLP models are working hard at catching up but still can't match the contrast of a good CRT.

Most LCD's and DLP's have bulb lives ranging from 1000 to 4000 hours. Between 1000 to 2000 is the most common, I think. A pessimistic estimation would then be 1000 hours, 2 hours a day = 500 days = over 1.5 years between bulbs. Not sure about the Sonys lamp costs but something like $500 would be in the ballpark (probably a bit less, but don't quote me on that).


------------------
/Kimmo

"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area." -- "BlackAdder 4"

#4 of 25 MannyE

MannyE

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 233 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 01:39 AM

Kimmo, Nick,

Thanks very much for the information! I do not have a problem with buying used at all...

The DLP projectors look like they may be just the ticket since they seem to kind of right in the middle between CRT and LCD at the moment.

The main beef I have with LCD is that I have yet to see one on display that did not have a dead pixel. That is something that would bother me to no end and render it useless if it was near the edge...I saw one in the middle of the screen once that completely ruined the experience for me, and is what kept me away from "Sharpvision".

Does DLP suffer from this? I'm not sure exactly how it works. The only problem so far is I don't see any DLPs in the price range yet. They are all around 6K or more. (at least the ones I see in the stores)
Ni!!

#5 of 25 Kimmo Jaskari

Kimmo Jaskari

    Screenwriter

  • 1,529 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 27 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 01:57 AM

No, TI who makes the DMD chips discard any chips with stuck mirrors, so I believe "stuck pixels" on DLP projectors are rare.

The new DLP's are pretty spectacular. The Sharp 9000 and other manufacturers versions with similar specs looks awesome. Street price will probably be around $8000 though.

Check out the screen shots over at AVSForum:
http://www.avsforum....TML/008794.html

Pretty darn spectacular, although of course a screen shot can never really do a projector justice.

Unfortunately out of my price range as well, but in a few years...


------------------
/Kimmo

"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area." -- "BlackAdder 4"

#6 of 25 Carlos_R

Carlos_R

    Extra

  • 19 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 13 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 03:43 AM

Take a look at the following post: http://www.hometheat....ML/008246.html

I paid less than $1k for my CRT/FP with no burn-in in any of the three guns (patience), less than $900.0 for my HTPC (diy), and approx. $50.0 for my screen (diy 1.4 gain painted fabric)I also have controll of 95% of my lighting, yet I still get an awesome image. set-up is not as complicated as many make it seem you just need to be patient and do your homework.

You may also want to take the time and see these various projectors in action before you make your desision (IMO)

good luck,
carlos_r
ECP 4500 (7"CRT)
80x45" (16x9 diy screen)
HTPC (Radeon/ATI 4.1 DVD)
1280x720 @72Hz
Kenwood DD/DTS decoder

#7 of 25 Lou Sytsma

Lou Sytsma

    Producer

  • 5,227 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 01 1998

Posted September 13 2001 - 05:06 AM

Manny - whatever you do - demo it first.

There are 3 main projector types - CRT, LCD, DLP. Each has it's own +/-'s.

CRTs have the best picture but are cumbersome to work with ie big & heavy.

LCDs have great colour but display a screen door effect.

DLPs have a better contrast level but are prone to rainbows.

Both LCDs and DLPs are much smaller than a CRT and are very portable.

LCDs and DLPs have bulbs that need to be replaced. This varies from 1000 - 6000 hours.

I went with a DLP NEC LT150 - the LCD screen door effect bothered me too much.

You will have to decide which projector type best works with you.

Avsforum is a good site to beef up your projector knowledge.

Good Luck!

Getting into FP was my best move in HT!

------------------
Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.

#8 of 25 Kimmo Jaskari

Kimmo Jaskari

    Screenwriter

  • 1,529 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 27 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 09:26 AM

It deserves pointing out that the new widescreen DLP's have much faster color wheels and nobody has reported seeing rainbows yet. I think I read one person who claimed to have even detected it... out of the corner of his eye as he walked by a screen and it was gone in a flash.

But forget about these new DLP's for much below $8000 for the time being.

------------------
/Kimmo

"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area." -- "BlackAdder 4"

#9 of 25 Sean M

Sean M

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 182 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 12 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 11:00 AM

Well, far be it from me to ever recommend a digital projecter (and I'm not really, simply as an alternative to CRT), but the Plus Piano will be coming out soon. It is a good projector to consider if you don't plan on doing a lot of HDTV viewing, but mostly DVD. http://piano.plus-vi...om/index_en.htm Follow the link and it will take you to the demo page for the projector. List price is 3k and it even has a six segment color wheel to reduce rainbow. It's also a dual mode with an 848x480 resolution mode for viewing unscaled DVD's, preferably from a progressive scan DVD player.

Definitely worth consideration if you don't want to go with a CRT, which is my first recommendation. If you can accomadate one, it will provide you with the best picture and have the smallest cost of ownership beyond the initial purchase price and/or setup. There are a lot of great CRT's out there for 4k and everything else really runs a distant second in terms of picture quality.

The other thing to consider is what scaler you will use with the projector. For DVD viewing you can cetainly build a HTPC that will fit the bill for movies (and you could use DScaler for other sources as well), or you could just use a progressive scan DVD player or pick up a deinterlacer like the Iscan Pro or Videon Omega One, or even a low cost scaler like the Quadscan Elite.

------------------
"Experience is the one thing you can't get for nothing." - Oscar Wilde

"Experience is the one thing you can't get for nothing." - Oscar Wilde

#10 of 25 Bill Lucas

Bill Lucas

    Supporting Actor

  • 530 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 20 1999

Posted September 13 2001 - 12:10 PM

Kimmo,

I was at CEDIA last week and I'm pretty sure I viewed every projector that was displayed. EVERY DLP projector I saw exhibited the rainbow effect, bar none.

#11 of 25 Kimmo Jaskari

Kimmo Jaskari

    Screenwriter

  • 1,529 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 27 2000

Posted September 13 2001 - 06:42 PM

Ok! I haven't seen any of the new batch myself but I'm not that sensitive to the rainbows on the current generation either.

Based on what I read on AVSForum and others who were lucky enough to be able to attend CEDIA though the situation is much improved with the new ones, at least.

But I guess there is no substitute for actually sitting down and watching a movie on the equipment you are considering to see if it will work for you.


------------------
/Kimmo

"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area." -- "BlackAdder 4"

#12 of 25 Luis Gabriel Gerena

Luis Gabriel Gerena

    Second Unit

  • 412 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2000

Posted September 14 2001 - 02:35 AM

"LCDs have great colour but display a screen door effect."

Just to calrify, mine doesn't have that problem (Sony W400Q) becuase of the special pixel arrangement.

Anyway, if you don't want a monster hanging from your ceiling then digital is the way and image quality could be great as long as you spend some time tweaking it so don't be afraid about those "don't even close to CRTs" claims. Yes, blacks are never black but you can't get perfect end to end convergence and geometry in a CRT either....so my point is? That as someone said already, YOU have to demo each technology for yourself because none is perfect and each individual reacts differently to its short comings. Some see rainbows and others don't, for example, so only you can tell. When I was buying my projector the hot one was the LT150 (DLP) so it took me some time but I was able to demo one and I wasn't impressed with it. So I went for the Sony VPL W400Q which is an old projector but it was what I was looking for in image quality, its a native 16:9 projector and I coould see as close as I want without screendoor effect. So in my case the Sony was a better fit to my preferences but that may not be your case so only you could really tell.
Regards
Luis G.
Sales Rep
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies

#13 of 25 Richard Watt

Richard Watt

    Agent

  • 46 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 24 1999

Posted September 14 2001 - 02:55 AM

Luis,

If you don't mind me asking...Where did you get the Sony from? I have been looking for a FP for my apartment and I don't have enough money to get the NEC LT150. I figured I could try and find a 400Q some where still being sold. Are these units fine to get used? Thanks.

Richard

#14 of 25 Luis Gabriel Gerena

Luis Gabriel Gerena

    Second Unit

  • 412 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2000

Posted September 14 2001 - 12:03 PM

I got it from Medical Video Systems. Its easy to deal with and there is a forum in www.TheBigPicture.com dedicated to the 400Q with lots of info and a couple of threads that I posted lately has some info on tweaks to get the most from it.
If you buy it make sure it has some warranty left so you can send it to Sony for a "tune up". If you buy from MVS it should have a 3 year warranty so no problem there.
Luis G.
Sales Rep
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies

#15 of 25 Bill Lucas

Bill Lucas

    Supporting Actor

  • 530 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 20 1999

Posted September 14 2001 - 02:13 PM

"Anyway, if you don't want a monster hanging from your ceiling then digital is the way and image quality could be great as long as you spend some time tweaking it so don't be afraid about those "don't even close to CRTs" claims. Yes, blacks are never black but you can't get perfect end to end convergence and geometry in a CRT either"

Luis,

Who's "claims" would that be? In addition to high-end audio systems I setup projectors for a living. I've seen more than I care to admit and to my *professional* eye CRT still puts out the best image. A properly setup CRT will have geometry and convergence that is rock-solid, doesn't have to be touched for months on end and has no noticeable errors. An amatuerish setup will look...well...amatuerish. As I stated, DLP hjas come a long way but the rainbow effect is still way too evident. I'd hate to have a client buy one because he didn't notice it in the demo and then three months in he sees it and it won't go away. Regards.

#16 of 25 Luis Gabriel Gerena

Luis Gabriel Gerena

    Second Unit

  • 412 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2000

Posted September 14 2001 - 04:22 PM

I completely agree that the best picture is that from a well calibrated CRT, no discussion there but I also think that you could get a very good picture with a digital projector sans real blacks (LCD being my choice since rainbows do bother me). So I think its unfair for CRT owners to put down Digital projectors as you know most do. This is not directed to anyone in particular so don't take it personal.
I think all technologies has good and bad points so each individual should demo them and see which one he likes best.
Regards
Luis G.
Sales Rep
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies

#17 of 25 Parker Clack

Parker Clack

    Executive Producer

  • 12,068 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 30 1997
  • Real Name:Parker
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted September 14 2001 - 04:59 PM

I really liked the image that I saw from the Sony 10HT. I saw no problem with any black level what so ever. HDTV looks great on this unit too. This is ofcourse what my opinion and like others have said you really need to demo any FP that you are going to purchase and make a choice on what you prefer. You are the one that is going to have to live with the projector after you buy it.


Parker

"I tried to get my medical records from the company but they say they

are confidential and can only be released to other insurance companies,

pharmaceutical​ reps, suppliers of medical equipment and for some

reason the RNC."
 


#18 of 25 Kimmo Jaskari

Kimmo Jaskari

    Screenwriter

  • 1,529 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 27 2000

Posted September 15 2001 - 07:43 AM

I'm vacillating wildly between going with a VW11HT to getting a Seleco CRT and an Iscan pro to totally fouling up my personal finances and getting a Sharp 9000... Posted Image

The picture I saw on a VW10HT, being totally inexperienced with FP when it first came out and I saw it in a store, was breathtaking. However, they were of course running A Bugs Life on it. The blacks even on live action movies didn't seem bad at all, and in a direct comparison to a Davis DLP projector that cost more than the Sony, the Sony blew it away. The black level was of course much darker, but I felt that a lot of the greyscale was also lost with that particular DLP.

A while ago my place of work got a 4:3 LCD proj with XGA resolution and I was thrilled to hear they had no objection to me borrowing it. However, the black levels on it were not good and the more I watched it the less I liked it. It got very disturbing and in the end I just stopped taking it home; I'd rather watch movies on my 32 inch direct view TV than I would on that projector.

Now, I know that a VW11HT would totally blow this XGA projector away, but I'm still worried that I'd buy it, enjoy it for a month or two and then develop the same sort of dislike for it that I did for the company projector. That would well and truly suck, because then I'd be stuck with a projector I was still paying off in increments but not enjoying watching movies on it.

I guess I'll have to watch and wait and see what street cost will be on a Sharp 9000 and if it's too excessive, make a decision between CRT and the VW11.

------------------
/Kimmo

"If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
"Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area." -- "BlackAdder 4"

#19 of 25 Shane Martin

Shane Martin

    Producer

  • 6,017 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 26 1999

Posted September 16 2001 - 08:26 AM

Forming an opinion based on ignorance is weird.
Though I know a few people who have untrained eyes and like the LCD, I can't watch one w/o seeing inadequate black level and the rainbow effect.

Something to keep in mind.

#20 of 25 Jon_Mx

Jon_Mx

    Agent

  • 32 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 29 2000

Posted September 16 2001 - 08:48 AM

The Sanyo PLV-60 is superior to the Sony VW10HT for about the same price. The NEC LT150 is the best projector under $3K, as long as you are not super sensitive to the rainbow effect. The Sharp 9000 is the best digital projector, but is more expensive. But people report in Japan they are selling for about $5700, which would make it the best deal out there if you can swing it.