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Help design the new Behringer Sub Equalizer BSE2496C to replace the BFD...


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#1 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 07 2006 - 08:05 AM

I'm posting this info in this forum because there appears to be more posts related to the BFD here than any other forum here on HTF.

I have spoken with Behringer and they have shown serious interest in designing a replacement for the BFD that is more suited to the consumer market. As many of you may already know... the DSP1124 has been discontinued. The replacement FBQ2496 only offers 1 preset and still doesn't get us many of the needed features for a total sub eq package.

This is not something to necessarily compete with the Velo SMS-1. We are trying to keep the street price around $150-200, which includes a built-in mic amp with phantom power and a built-in SPL meter... the recommended Behringer ECM8000 mic would be extra if you need one (~$50 at Parts Express). We would continue to recommend using RoomEQ Wizard as the software program of choice due to its increasing and overwhelming popularity.

This is something we are pretty optimistic about. Keep in mind that the consumer HT world is what put the BFD on the map. Therefore Behringer has interest.

At this point in time we have no set time frame as to when we could expect this unit to hit the shelves. After the suggested features are submitted we hope to get a general idea of a time frame. Behringer has many of these features already incorporated in their various products, so we are hoping it would not be a long drawn out process.

Here are the features we are considering at present. We are looking for suggestions, comments, recommendations, etc. Remember to keep in mind the target street price. KISS!

Proposal for the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub Equalizer 24/96 Consumer)

The consumer home theater world has for several years used the BFD DSP1124P as a parametric sub eq to level out the response of their sub(s). The unit has been extremely popular and continues to be the popular choice for sub equalization, where it can be found, being that it has been recently discontinued.

We are basing the BSE2496C (Behringer Sub EQ 24/96 Consumer) on similarities to several of your products such as the former DSP1124, the current FBQ2496, DEQ2496 and DCX2496, none of which fit our needs precisely. Following is a list of features in four categories, the first being features in the DSP1124 and/or the FBQ2496 that we would like to keep as they are. Second are the essential features we would like, as well as several requested changes from the current BFD units. These are what we consider the must haves, if at all possible. Third are features/changes that we would like, but could live without if we just had too, although we believe they should have a minimal cost factor and might be easier included than we think. Fourth are features available in other Behringer models or new features that we would like to be considered, but could be reserved for a second higher-end model if they will cause the target unit to exceed our target price.

We are not requesting a software program due to the free availability of the RoomEQ Wizard program. The target price we would like to see is $200-250 retail which will allow for a street price of approximately $150-200. It is imperative that we keep the cost to a minimum, as this is and always has been the driving force behind BFD sales in the home theater world. The majority of BFD 1124 owners were able to acquire their unit for $100-125.

Features on the DSP1124 and/or FBQ2496 we would like to keep:
~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ One year warranty.


Essential features and changes that we would like and should have a very minimal cost factor:
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED’s / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED’s on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.

* If it will save cost, limiting the upper frequency response and filter capabilities to 400hz is acceptable.

With the above features and changes this unit should sell like a hot potato at a steak house. We believe these are reasonable features for a street priced unit at $150-200.


Requested features/changes that won’t make or break the unit, but would be nice to have if minimal cost factor:
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.


Next are the more elaborate features that you already have in some of your units, plus a few other added requested features, but we are uncertain as to the cost of these features and whether it would cause the new unit to exceed our target street price of $150-200. It may be that we could stand a street price of $250 (retail $299) with these extra features. We assume it would depend on your cost to integrate them into the new unit. Or if feasible, offer the above in one unit and add these features to another unit at a higher cost.

Elaborate requested features with unknown cost factor for implementation (in order of relevance):
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves – individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED’s… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
~ Fully integrated software program (something similar to RoomEQ Wizard).
~ Auto-EQ (with ability to manually adjust suggested filters).



NOTE: I do not work for Behringer or anyone else. When I say "we" this and "we" that... I am referring to what the majority has voiced thus far. Just like I have never been paid for the BFD GUIDE or the BFD FORUM... I am not getting paid to do this. It is because of the GUIDE and FORUM that I have a strong voice with Behringer, but it is because of YOU and the HT world that we can have the opportunity to have a new product designed. It won't get to market because of me... it will succeed because of you. It will benefit me no more than anyone else that has interest... but it is fun and it will be a huge benefit to all of us looking for such a product.

Thanks!

#2 of 41 OFFLINE   Dustin B

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Posted February 07 2006 - 08:16 AM

That sounds fantastic. My only suggestions were going to be a subsonic filter and phase adjustments and you have them both there. If they build the unit you described above, they've got one definite sale from me.
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#3 of 41 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 07 2006 - 10:30 AM

Wow, based on what you said, that already has just about everything I'd want too. I agree, a SS filter might be a good thing. I already have that on my plate amp with my current sub, but nobody says that will be my last sub Posted Image I actually don't mind how the current ones look, but making it more "consumer" looking wouldn't be a bad thing. Remote control for primary functions sounds great too, so it can be macro controlled (bypass and presets controlled?), as well as 12v triggered.
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#4 of 41 OFFLINE   SethH

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Posted February 07 2006 - 10:33 AM

If it would save on costs, I think the built-in SPL meter could be dropped. I know that the RS meter isn't ideal, but there is always the option to buy a better one. It'd be nice to have it in there, but I think it could go if needed to get the right price. If they announced this product tomorrow I would probably be putting my order in.

#5 of 41 OFFLINE   SteveCallas

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Posted February 07 2006 - 02:21 PM

You already got a response from me at AVS, but I'll repeat that this would be a great product and I'd definitely buy one. Just make sure the high pass filter is adjustable from 10hz-25hz, preferably in small increments. A 15hz high pass as the lowest setting is no good.

#6 of 41 OFFLINE   JimPeitersen

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Posted February 07 2006 - 04:16 PM

I'll post here as well. Keep it under $200 and this product will be very, very popular! JP

#7 of 41 OFFLINE   PaulT

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Posted February 07 2006 - 04:17 PM

I'd replace my BFD in a minute with one with the features you list in your OP.

Call it the BSE2496SP (Sonnie Parker) ! Posted Image
"One of the problems of taking things apart and seeing how they work--supposing you're trying to find out how a cat works--you take that cat apart to see how it works, what you've got in your hands is a non-working cat." -- Douglas Adams

#8 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 07 2006 - 04:58 PM

A man with my heart at mind... I like that name! lol

#9 of 41 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted February 07 2006 - 06:31 PM

Crap, I need to read this thread in more detail later ... Posted Image

But one irritant I always had with the 2 BFD's I had, was the turn on thump when you power it up. Put a relay in there to delay output until that thump has passed.

Also, their QC isn't the best. The 1124 I had buzzed. Tightening all the screws of the case helped, but didn't eliminate it entirely.

Display should be dimmable.

Somehow integrate test tones with it.

Make it *high quality* 24/96, and then people might even be willing to play with it for main speakers.

More later...
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#10 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 07 2006 - 07:03 PM

Hey Kevin... definitely go over the suggestions. A couple of your concerns are already addressed. We are not recommending it for mains... just strictly a sub eq, but it will be 24/96... hence the name BSE2496C.

I haven't heard too much with QC... as a matter fact, out of the literally 100's and 100's of users I've come in contact with, I can't remember any that have had QC problems. I'm sure there's been a few folks that have had a problem here and there though... that would be expected... but overall I believe they have a pretty good track record.

Why would you want integrated test tones? Are you not using RoomEQ Wizard? It makes life much easier with the BFD. It's pretty much a given to use REW now, which includes a sweep and individual test tones, measures the full 1/60 resolution, suggest filters, and will load filters into the BFD. It also loads correction values and a will load a house curve to be used as a target response. Pretty much as good as Auto-EQ too, except you can tweak it til next week if you want. You might want to check it out... RoomEQ Wizard

#11 of 41 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted February 08 2006 - 01:02 PM

Sonnie- I always used discrete test tone discs, or ETF5... I will have to check that out.

If the BFD can generate its own test tones, it simply makes it that much easier for the user. (A la the new box from Velodyne.)

I *know* that I'm not the only one who had problems with a "buzzing" BFD. When I got mine a few years back, it was a common complaint. Posted Image

OK, read through all your suggestions. I like the subsonic filter idea, and a lot of others. But I can see the cost being too high if they try to include everything. Kind of neat that you/we get input on this!

Oh, for bandwidth of a filter. I know 1/3, 1/10, etc, octaves is the common way. But I'd prefer it by Hz. I.e., I set a filter at 68 Hz, attenuate by 8 dB, and a width of 10 Hz (5 Hz each way). (Or make it selectable, Hz or octaves.)
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#12 of 41 OFFLINE   MikeNg

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Posted February 08 2006 - 01:11 PM

Wow, what a list of improvements! If this thing ever hits the market, it'll be a really nice unit. The ONLY other thing I'd want (and I don't expect to get it!) is to have a PC interface for it so I can analyze/calibrate/etc. from a laptop. I understand that trying to introduce a GUI is a totally different ball of wax though... OK - one more thing. If I can't get a GUI maybe I can get a 'data dump' to graphically see what my room curve looks like.

#13 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 08 2006 - 01:14 PM

We may not be able to get every feature, but we'll try. There are a couple that we can eliminate such as mic amp and SPL meter that could be eliminated and probably get us in the ballpark, if we happen to be over. If you think about it... an SPL meter cost 40 bucks and a mic amp cost about 50 bucks. Not sure how much they'd cost when built-in to the unit though. We think the remainder is pretty minor stuff.

#14 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 08 2006 - 01:26 PM


Already got it... RoomEQ Wizard

It's nice... it will do Auto-EQ, MultiEQ (averaging for up to 8 listening positions)... corrections values... all kinds of graphs... and tweakable to the next decade.

#15 of 41 OFFLINE   David_Rivshin

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Posted February 08 2006 - 02:25 PM

I've got a 1124P, and there are only two things that I'd really like to see improved (that I can think of right now):
  • Filter center frequency below 20Hz, the lower the better
  • Display that doesn't light up my whole room, a simple off switch would suffice.
And perhaps two things that I'd appreciate, but aren't deal-breakers:
  • 12V trigger so I don't have to leave it on all the time. Although it doesn't use much juice, so always-on isn't that big of a deal.
  • Better UI. It's only used very rarely, but it would help initial setup.
I think things like the built in SPL meter aren't really necessary, especially if they increase the cost. What would be really cool to see would be a separate box which had the smarts and programmed the BFD via the MIDI port. If it had a built in pre-amp and came in a kit with the ECM8000, that would be really nice. Behringer obviously knows the characteristics of the ECM8000 in terms of frequency response and sensitivity, so it could easily be able to give a pretty accurate A/C/non-weighted SPL response as well. Of course a line-out so you could hook it into a more powerful analysis system would be good too. You could even sell it to folks who are otherwise still happy with their 1100P and 1124P units, as long as the MIDI programming is the same.
I'm of the "simple tools that do one job, and do it well" philosphy. If it takes two tools to get the job done, that's not a problem.
Following that line of thinking, imagine pricing something like this:
BFD - $150
auto-setup kit - $100
total for one button subwoofer optimization: $250
Probably an easy sell for alot of visitors to forums like this that aren't as big of tweak-heads as some of us, but still want the benefits of flatter sub response. Get together with SVS to offer it as a package deal (including cables to hook it all together) with a new subwoofer, and it might just be called a better mouse-trap.

That's my 2¢
-- Dave

#16 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 08 2006 - 03:22 PM

That's a good 2¢ worth David! Very well put.

#17 of 41 OFFLINE   Chris PC

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Posted February 09 2006 - 02:18 PM

Sounds good. I am looking for an 1100 or 1124 myself right now. I like the idea of silver or black and perhaps a display dimmer. Come to think of it, there should be an industry standard remote code for dimming so you can dim everything together, rather than one by one.

I for one would buy something like this, but is there any way it could also be like an Outlaw ICBM? That's asking too much to be a bass multi-channel management device in addition to a subwoofer EQ. Keep the two channels so I can EQ my subwoofer AND bass shaker too Posted Image
Going from projector to flatscreen for a while.... :P

#18 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 09 2006 - 04:31 PM

I think we almost have you covered Chris. Okay... here's a new revamped list, as if I were about to submit it to Behringer:


#19 of 41 OFFLINE   Chris PC

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Posted February 10 2006 - 02:45 AM

I guess the newer unit would be competing with the newer Velodyne SMS-1?
Going from projector to flatscreen for a while.... :P

#20 of 41 OFFLINE   Sonnie Parker

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Posted February 10 2006 - 03:07 AM

Actually it might, but it would be a heck of a lot cheaper.




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