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HiDef Discs with SD side


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#1 of 27 Ed St. Clair

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Posted February 03 2006 - 06:59 AM

My fave DVD feature was "seamless branching".
Got just about nowhere!
(My second fave, "isolated score track", did about as well)
My fave (so far) HD disc feature is an added SD (DVD) side.
Got great, exciting press when manufactures announced that this would be possible for both camps in the format war. Also, retailers did a hip, hip, hooray, for single sku's of future titles.
Now...
Nothing.
HD-DVD is 'promising' some day & date releases with DVD, however not a one disc solution to the conversion from SD to HD.
Is this the old flipper problem?
Is it folks want artwork on the disc?
Is it the I can't tell which side is which thing?
What happened?

I stopped buying SD DVD's that I figured I'd buy on HD way back when Sky Capt. was released. Would be great to pick up Batman Begins HD disc, play the SD side until an HD player is in my hands.

(Luckily this time I do have a backup HD feature; Lossless. Just I'm hoping that's the way major release discs are done)
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#2 of 27 Sean Bryan

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Posted February 03 2006 - 08:12 AM

I think this is a terrible idea, and I hope it is rarely (if ever) used.

From what I have read, one side would be HD DVD 15 (single layer) and the other side would be DVD 5 (single layer).

So you'd be getting the worst of both.

I'd rather buy Batman Begins on a dual layer DVD and then later on dual layer HD DVD (or preferably Blu-ray) then getting a "one in all" version with compromised standard definition and compromises high definition images.

Plus, I would imagine that it would cost more to buy a DVD/HD DVD hybrid than just a standard DVD. And I'd think it wouldn't be surprising if it cost more to buy a hybrid than a standard HD DVD.

For the vast majority of people out there who are not planing on getting into HD in the near future, why would they want to buy a more expensive disc with likely inferior picture quality (not to mention no room for extras, or if there are extras even worse picture quality)?

I just think that this is a terrible idea and hope it never gets used.
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#3 of 27 Yumbo

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Posted February 03 2006 - 09:17 AM

ONLY if it was scratch free.

#4 of 27 Shawn Perron

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Posted February 04 2006 - 02:12 AM

Hybrid discs only have a single layer DVD side. It would be a horrible idea for hybrid discs to become the norm as all SD people would be punished for not upgrading.

Then again if the conspiracy is to cripple DVD so people rebuy everything in HD, the upgrade from a single layer DVD to HD would be enormous.

The true solution would be a 2 disc set with 1 disc DVD and one HD, but this will never happen because people would just sell off the DVD discs on ebay. They'd be killing thier own sales.

#5 of 27 Cees Alons

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Posted February 04 2006 - 02:29 AM

The price would have to be the price of the HD disc (at least). Not many people who don't have HD yet would buy that, I guess.


Cees

#6 of 27 Glenn Overholt

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Posted February 04 2006 - 04:39 AM

I don't think that was the point.

First way - store carries SD + BR
Second store carries hybrids with BR on one side, and SD on the other.

Any store would still be able to carry all titles using the same amount of store space. Wal*Mart would eat that up!

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#7 of 27 Mark Lucas

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Posted February 04 2006 - 05:21 AM

If being a hybrid means sacrificing anything on the HD side then forget it.

#8 of 27 MarcoBiscotti

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Posted February 04 2006 - 07:53 AM

Terrible idea, sorry.

#9 of 27 Ed St. Clair

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Posted February 04 2006 - 09:05 AM

So...
for this group the problem is space (the final fronter).
SD/HD discs would be limited to single layer sides, therefore losing the added value content that most HT fans have loved about DVD over VHS (one of the reasons anyway).
Did not know this was the 'compromise' of dual sided HD disc. I thought you could have one dual layer HD side & one single layer SD side.
So, is it than true that a two sided HD only disc would only have one layer per side?
Thx.

Aah...
Don't you just love goggle!
http://www.manifest-....ulti_layer.htm
Quote:
Two such formats have been announced for HD DVD. The first is a single-sided, dual-layer hybrid ROM disc with one layer of each format. Announced in December 2004 by Memory-Tech and Toshiba, the disc contains both an upper DVD 5 layer (4.7 GB) and a lower HD DVD 15 layer (15 GB) . "This has been approved by the DVD Forum," says Knox, "but since most of today's DVDs are DVD 9, the studios were not so excited about it."

It get's better;
Quote:
The second hybrid disc is a double-sided, dual-layer hybrid ROM disc, with one side containing dual-layer HD DVD 30 (30 GB), bonded to the second DVD 9 side (8.5 GB). It was announced by Toshiba in May 2005 at Media-Tech, and the draft specification was approved by the DVD Forum in June.

And the best idea yet;
Quote:
JVC announced a triple-layer combo Blu-ray / DVD ROM format combining an outside Blu-ray disc (BD) layer (25 GB) and an inner dual-layer DVD 9 (8.5 GB), for a total capacity of 33.5 GB.In addition, JVC reported that it was working on a four-layer combo ROM disc combining dual layers of both Blu-ray (50 GB) and DVD (8.5 GB), for a total capacity of 58.5 GB storage.

So everyone can see, there would be no problem at all with 'space'.
And you get artwork to boot!
Quote:
Memory-Tech has stated that these formats can be produced on existing manufacturing lines, which can manufacture both HD DVD and DVD discs. Manufacturing costs for the single-sided dual-layer discs will be comparable with that of single-sided dual-layer DVD-ROM or HD DVD-ROM discs, and the cost for the double-sided format, says Knox, "is only a little more than today's DVD 18."
And, at least for HD-DVD, the cost would not be prohibitive.
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HD should be for EVERYONE!

#10 of 27 Chad R

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Posted February 04 2006 - 09:13 AM

It would be convenient for people (like me) who buy movies and then take them over to relative's houses to watch. This was a big craw in my wife's side back when we were the only one's with Laserdisc and DVD -- she couldn't go to her sister's house to watch a movie we bought. This is a necessary evil since we don't have kids but the rest of the family does; it's easier to go over there where the kids have their own rooms to keep them occupied while the adults watch a movie. Since I'm the only one in the circle with a HDTV, and would like to get a Blu-Ray player, this could be a problem all over again.

However, if it sacrificed quality, I wouldn't be interested.

#11 of 27 Shawn Perron

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Posted February 05 2006 - 02:11 AM

Ed, you are not taking into account both the increased cost for a disc with more then 1 layer per side and all the problems people have been having with DVD-18s. Dual layer dual sided discs are just going to be more prone to production defects and will cost significantly more to produce and cost after the sale disc replacement.

To lower production costs, all first gen hybrid discs will most likely be single layer only. If they haven't ironed out all the problems with DVD-18s, what makes you think the exact same manufacturing process is going to work any better with 2 sided multi layer discs?

#12 of 27 Ed St. Clair

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Posted February 05 2006 - 05:10 AM

Quote:
Ed, you are not taking into account both the increased cost for a disc with more then 1 layer per side and all the problems people have been having with DVD-18s.

Cost will be simular to todays DVD-18. With have been as cheap as two DVD's, since back in the day of The Ultimate T2 Edition. At least from the HD-DVD combatants. Problems with DVD-18 discs are mostly related to compression.
I still fell the biggest battle would be the old story of people not having artwork on one side. Has this been addressed? See-though artwork?
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#13 of 27 Greg T

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Posted February 05 2006 - 11:31 PM

This is an absolutely stupid idea as sd dvd buyers are going to want the same less than 20.00 price they have now for new releases, and this will not be the case with any dually discs.

What matters to most early adopters after studio support, is 1080p and lossless audio in at least 6.1 channels, and at least 96/24.
192/24 would be even better but I will not be holding my breath for any of those.

#14 of 27 Sean Bryan

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Posted February 06 2006 - 09:36 AM

I'll say it again. This is a terrible idea, and I hope it dies in a fire.
I don't believe in transcending the genre, I believe IN the genre - Joss Whedon

#15 of 27 Kelly Grannell

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Posted February 27 2006 - 12:11 PM

It's not a terrible idea. This means I can buy an HD DVD without ALSO having to buy SD DVD so I can play the same movie on my other DVD players.

Or do you guys want me to buy 4 HD DVD players?

#16 of 27 Kris Z.

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Posted February 28 2006 - 12:40 AM

Hybrid discs sounds like a pretty stupid idea, why not just throw in a regular DVD in the HD-DVD/BD package? Kind of like the combo packs with DVD+UMD they're trying out now.

#17 of 27 Kelly Grannell

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Posted February 28 2006 - 12:42 AM

or they can do that too!

(they have DVD + UMD package now? I didn't know that!)

#18 of 27 Kris Z.

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Posted February 28 2006 - 01:24 AM

There are a couple out and some announced.

Anyway I think it might be a good idea. Get the people who may want to see a new movie now but are still unsure of the HD formats to pay $10 extra for the more expensive copy (for future purposes), and the more of these they get, the more they become an incentive to finally get that HD set/player and start collecting for real.

#19 of 27 Ken_F

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Posted February 28 2006 - 02:43 AM

Some very surprising responses in this thread.Posted Image

You lose absolutely nothing on a flipper with DVD9 on one side and HD-DVD30 on the other, aside from the fancy disk graphic. Is the fancy disk graphic really that important to you?

"Double dipping" is a key issue facing DVD buyers. Do you want to buy a DVD, only to have to replace it in six months with a HDTV version? With these flipper disks, you can eliminate double dipping for new titles. You can stick with DVD now until second or third-generation HD-DVD players are out (with all the features you want), while buying disks that will play as SD in your currrent player, and at full 1080p HD resolution when you ultimately buy a HD-DVD player or new HDTV television.

Moreover, are you really going to replace every player in your home with a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player in the near future? I think not. Most will have one HD-DVD or Blu-ray player and one or more [other] DVD players for the forseeable future. With these dual-sided flipper disks, you only need one disk to play on all the DVD and HD-DVD players in your home. You can loan disks to friends, and they would be able to watch them on their older DVD players.

Disk manufacturing cost is obviously higher, but not obscenely so because it can be done on today's DVD production lines using most of the existing infrastructure. These hybrid disks still cost less to manufacture than DL BD disks, which require completely new infrastructure.

Quote:
This is an absolutely stupid idea as sd dvd buyers are going to want the same less than 20.00 price they have now for new releases, and this will not be the case with any dually discs.
Pay $20 for a new DVD title or $25 for the DVD + HDTV version? I don't know about you, but I think the latter will be the clear choice for many, many people.

#20 of 27 LarryH

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Posted May 09 2006 - 04:18 PM

The choice for Rumor Has It seems to be pay $15 for a new DVD title or $30 for the DVD + HDTV version. I can't see a DVD patron willing to pay $15 extra for his pie in the sky, nor the HDTV patron wanting to pay an extra $5 for something he probably will never use. I think the target market is much too small to alienate the primary market. I wasn't able to convince myself to buy either today, though I would have bought HD-DVD at $25.


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