-

Jump to content



Sign up for a free account!

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and you won't get the popup ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

It's official: BOTH Blu-ray and HD-DVD downrez component


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
373 replies to this topic

#1 of 374 Ken_F

Ken_F

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 136 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 13 1998

Posted January 20 2006 - 08:04 AM

http://www.videobusi.../CA6300812.html


One positive bit of news:
Quote:
As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required to disclose on a movie’s packaging whether the image will be down-converted [via component].
Customers can vote with their wallets by choosing not to purchase Blu-ray and HD-DVD disks flagged for component downconversion.

#2 of 374 Sam Davatchi

Sam Davatchi

    Producer

  • 3,151 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 15 1999

Posted January 20 2006 - 08:27 AM

This sucks!

I also read this news here:
http://www.darkhoriz...s06/060120j.php

Quote:
What this agreement means is that those with the latest digital TV's (the ones with HDMI or 'DVI with HDCP' interfaces) will get the full 1920 x 1080 resolution experience when they play their HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs. However those early adopters with the older sets will be forced to watch a downconverted 960 x 540 signal.

I purchased my huge HD Plasma TV a year ago and I'm not going to change it soon. It has no HDMI connection for sure but it has DVI connection but I didn't know there are different DVI connections! How can I check if it's 'DVI with HDCP'? I will not get "HD" DVDs if I cannot play them on my "new" HD TV. Too bad for them!

#3 of 374 FrancisP

FrancisP

    Screenwriter

  • 1,108 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 15 2004

Posted January 20 2006 - 08:48 AM

Quote:
Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs.

So they can screw the consumer should be added to the article. That's why I would be hesitant about using a HDMI connection even if I had one. SD looks a lot less troublesome to me than HD.

#4 of 374 Joseph Bolus

Joseph Bolus

    Screenwriter

  • 2,186 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 04 1999

Posted January 20 2006 - 09:05 AM

I suppose that when these discs are reviewed here there will have to be *two* reviews of the provided video quality:

* One for the "pure" HDMI 1080i/p transfer
-and-
* One for the "downconverted" 540p transfer.

I suppose that, just like anamorphic downconversion with the legacy DVD players, the quality of the "downconverted" image will vary based on a combination of the downconversion circuitry of the player and the upscalling/interlacing ability of the older HDTV.

What a mess!!
Joseph
---------------

#5 of 374 Joseph DeMartino

Joseph DeMartino

    Lead Actor

  • 8,301 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 31 1969
  • Real Name:Joseph DeMartino
  • LocationFlorida

Posted January 20 2006 - 09:11 AM

Quote:
One for the "downconverted" 540p transfer.


Which will be worthless because there will be so many permuations of players and monitors (or intermediary devices like AVRs) doing the downconversion that the reviews won't help most readers get any sense of what the disc will look like on their own system.

Way to go, Hollywood.

Regards,

Joe

#6 of 374 Jason Harbaugh

Jason Harbaugh

    Screenwriter

  • 2,968 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 30 2001

Posted January 20 2006 - 09:51 AM

It's funny, all I want to do is hand over my money to Hollywood and the like, but they are giving me no reason to. Posted Image

Like I said in the other thread, I'll gladly be an early adopter for an HD optical format, but I will only buy titles that do not downrez.

#7 of 374 Jim Smith

Jim Smith

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 185 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 10 2005

Posted January 20 2006 - 10:30 AM

On the brite side this could have been worse. We could have had full 480p downconversion on all players mandatory. Instead we are getting 540p downconverting and only on certain titles. My television can't handle anything higher then 540p anyway. However I still will be more stingy on downconverting titles simply for the principle of the matter that any downconverting is stupid. I think when non-downconverting titles sell higher the rouge studios will change there minds.

#8 of 374 Aaron_Brez

Aaron_Brez

    Supporting Actor

  • 792 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 22 2000

Posted January 20 2006 - 10:40 AM

Quote:
I purchased my huge HD Plasma TV a year ago and I'm not going to change it soon. It has no HDMI connection for sure but it has DVI connection but I didn't know there are different DVI connections! How can I check if it's 'DVI with HDCP'?

What's the make and model number? It may be listed in your manual. My buddy's Hitachi didn't say anything about it on the packaging, and only the fine print on the last page of his manual had "HDCP 1.0 Compliant" as a footnote.

Quote:
I think when non-downconverting titles sell higher the rouge studios will change there minds.

The rouge studios? Is that Warner, Universal, and Paramount, since HD DVD will have red packaging?

(sorry)

#9 of 374 BrianShort

BrianShort

    Supporting Actor

  • 934 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 18 2000

Posted January 20 2006 - 10:50 AM

Sam: I think that if your set has DVI, you should be fine. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. Sure glad I waited a while to buy my HD set. The only thing I wish now is that it was bigger and supported 1080p! (42" Sony)

edit: Oops, I missed the "with HDCP" part! Hopefully things will work for you.

#10 of 374 Aaron_Brez

Aaron_Brez

    Supporting Actor

  • 792 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 22 2000

Posted January 20 2006 - 10:53 AM

There are sets which have DVI but not HDCP. Most LCD computer monitors, certainly, and some early DVI TV sets. Not on the last couple of years' models, but if you bought an older DVI TV this could be a problem...

#11 of 374 BrianShort

BrianShort

    Supporting Actor

  • 934 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 18 2000

Posted January 20 2006 - 10:56 AM

So how will this affect HD-DVD and BD play from PCs? Would they be downrezed too if you were using a regular computer monitor, or had your PC hooked to your DVI TV?

#12 of 374 Sam Davatchi

Sam Davatchi

    Producer

  • 3,151 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 15 1999

Posted January 20 2006 - 11:02 AM

My TV is a Plasma Hitachi 42PD-5200E (bought in France).

#13 of 374 JackKay

JackKay

    Second Unit

  • 461 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 27 2004

Posted January 20 2006 - 12:19 PM

I wrote this in another thread:

It's going to be interesting to see how each studio uses the ICT flag. I wonder if they will use a window system. A movie like KING KONG may initially come out flagged, then after time when it's demand has wained, it would be released unflagged.

Time will soon tell.
"I believe in censorship. After all, I made a fortune out of it." -Mae West

#14 of 374 Aaron_Brez

Aaron_Brez

    Supporting Actor

  • 792 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 22 2000

Posted January 20 2006 - 02:45 PM

BrianShort,

Yes, it will affect PCs using "regular" monitors. Your PC can "re-uprez" it back to higher resolution, but it is required to "start" from 960x540.

Sam,

It was a bitch to find, but on the Hitachi website FAQ page I found:

Quote:
Does the 42PD5200 DVI socket support HDCP (High Definition Digital Content Protection)?


Yes, it supports HDCP.


#15 of 374 Sam Davatchi

Sam Davatchi

    Producer

  • 3,151 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 15 1999

Posted January 21 2006 - 02:53 AM

Thanks a lot Aaron for your time.

By the way, this argument that they don’t allow it because of piracy is really bizarre. I mean when was the last time that pirates pirated DVD with recording the component output?!!!!! Eventually the copy protection will be broken and they will copy the exact content digitally like what they do today for DVDs. I don’t know, tell me is that impossible?

#16 of 374 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Producer

  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted January 21 2006 - 03:25 AM

This isn't meant to be a justification of the studios' decision, nor a dismissal of people's concerns, but a few quick experiments donconverting HD screencaps to 960x540 (using nearest neighbor conversion, the crudest algorithm possible) and then blowing them back up (using Lanczos, arguably the finest process available to the average Joe) reveals only a VERY slight loss of detail.

When I have more time, I'll experiment donwconverting some actual clips, re-encoding them at 960x540, then playing them back upscaling them via ffdshow. But I feel very confident saying upconverted BluRay/HD-DVD is not exactly going to look like upconverted DVD, but rather much, much closer to the original source than most people think.

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P

#17 of 374 Edwin-S

Edwin-S

    Producer

  • 5,574 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 20 2000

Posted January 21 2006 - 07:20 AM

What equipment is going to be required to upconvert to 1080i if the component outputs are downrezzed to 960 x 540?
If the quality of the upconverted image equals 95% of the 1080i HD signal then what is the point of downconverting to begin with. All it does is cost owners of component-only sets more money for an upconvertor.

The whole point of downconversion is supposedly to combat piracy; however, if an upconverted signal is close to "true HD" then how will the downconversion fight piracy?
The people ripping off copies of these films don't strike me as the type to be worrying about a 5% or 10% loss in image quality. Hell, they won't care if there is a 50% loss. They will still copy the content and then pass it off as "HD quality" to unsuspecting consumers. That is why they are called "pirates", because they're thieves in every sense of the word.

Anyway, mass piracy by copying an analog signal is completely inefficient. The vector for organized theft of HD discs isn't going to come from recording analog signals. It is going to come from the hacking of the AACS by some computer geek with the need to prove what a "genius" he/she is.
"You bring a horse for me?" "Looks like......looks like we're shy of one horse." "No.......You brought two too many."

#18 of 374 Jim Smith

Jim Smith

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 185 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 10 2005

Posted January 21 2006 - 08:18 AM

Edwin-S the quality drop between full 1080i dowconverted 540p will definutly be alot more then 10%. It will be 50% at the very least. Anyone who isn't blind of stupid will notice the drop. However 2/3 of digital televisions have digital inputs, nearly 1/2 of component digital televisions aren't capable of higher then 540p, I don't think too many titles will do this, plus Blu-Ray at 540p will still have a definute improvement over 480p DVDs. So overall this situation could have been so much worse.

#19 of 374 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Producer

  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted January 21 2006 - 08:25 AM

Quote:
What equipment is going to be required to upconvert to 1080i if the component outputs are downrezzed to 960 x 540?

The component outputs on your BluRay/HD-DVD player will be compromised, not the ones on a scaler or HTPC Posted Image

Quote:
If the quality of the upconverted image equals 95% of the 1080i HD signal then what is the point of downconverting to begin with. All it does is cost owners of component-only sets more money for an upconvertor.

I'm sorry, did you just ask me to make sense of Hollywood's actions? Posted Image

Quote:
The whole point of downconversion is supposedly to combat piracy; however, if an upconverted signal is close to "true HD" then how will the downconversion fight piracy?
The people ripping off copies of these films don't strike me as the type to be worrying about a 5% or 10% loss in image quality. Hell, they won't care if there is a 50% loss. They will still copy the content and then pass it off as "HD quality" to unsuspecting consumers. That is why they are called "pirates", because they're thieves in every sense of the word.

I agree with you. Again, I'm not trying to make heads or tails of the studios' policies, I'm just sharing my impressions with my fellow HT fans.

Quote:
Anyway, mass piracy by copying an analog signal is completely inefficient.

Well, I'm not planning to engage in "mass piracy", and I doubt most people here plan to, either... I was mostly hinting that it will be possible for those so inclined to back up their HD discs with a minimal sacrifice in PQ, if having backups is that important to them, and they find MMC too restrictive, as well as that those with non-compliant display devices should be able to enjoy just about all the PQ these discs will offer.

Quote:
The vector for organized theft of HD discs isn't going to come from recording analog signals. It is going to come from the hacking of the AACS by some computer geek with the need to prove what a "genius" he/she is.

I'm no cryptography expert, but what I've read seems to indicate that by the time someone cracks AACS, the formats using it might well be already obsolete.

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P

#20 of 374 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Producer

  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted January 21 2006 - 08:26 AM

Quote:
Anyone who isn't blind of stupid will notice the drop.


Well, so far I don't see a "50%" drop, so what am I, Jimbo?

This used to be such a nice place when people could disagree without being rude.

Sorry, I forgot myself... We now return to "TEH SKY IS FALLING OMGZZ0RZ!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!" on the HTF channel, all hand-wringing, all the time.

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P


Back to Blu-ray



Forum Nav Content I Follow