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Will you be rushing into the new Hi-Def formats in 2006?


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#21 of 451 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted January 15 2006 - 03:35 AM

Ricardo,

I'm getting very tired of hearing this argument over and over again. "They won't do it" ("they would be stupid", etc.). OK, then why is the functionality present? They cannot possibly have any objections to a proposal to remove it, can they?

And another reason why I hate that kind of functionality, is, because it could be used by other parties than "trusted" studios. "Funny" DVD's killing your player when played. Honest mistakes made by you or your kids, or a guest of your house (or someone you - quite legally isn't it - lend your player to for some time). Or by a bug, or other malfunctioning.

Point is, and I'm surprised people go on arguing about that: I DON'T WANT IT. That's all I'm saying: I won't buy into this concept until several things are much clearer than they are now.

This part is not directed at you, BTW, Ricardo, but to some posters in this thread.

What are these discussions about?

Let's take one topic: if I reject a stronger form of something I accepted in the past, that's not wrong of me. I weigh things against each other.

In fact, the question of whether or not we are willing to buy into this ill-defined format is what this poll-thread is about, and I really don't understand why a loud-voiced vocal minority tries to argue about the opinions others are giving to this simple question.

Fine to state your own point, but do not harrass someone else about his/hers. Discussions are nice, but don't tell other members they shouldn't have the opinions they do.


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#22 of 451 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted January 15 2006 - 04:19 AM

Yes, so would I. And although I didn't hear yet if the proposed settlement was accepted in the US or not, I'm not sure if a lawsuit isn't still going on, or in the make, in Europe.


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#23 of 451 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted January 15 2006 - 05:38 AM

Repeat: (1) What establishes a "legal" disc? I want to be able to safely any disc that's handed to me (or at least be sure playing it won't modify my player in any irresettable way) and (2) If that's true, why is the shutdown function there? For punishing people playing "illegal discs"?


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#24 of 451 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted January 15 2006 - 10:27 AM

Nils,

That's nonsense.

Quote:
Well that was one long way of saying you don't have a reasonable solution.
So what?
Are unreasonable solutions (to whatever) allowed because reasonable solutions haven't been thought up yet? And aren't they still unreasonable then?

But it's even mostly beside the point of this thread. We are asked to vote whether or not we will buy this year - and some say yes, others say no. If the product doesn't suit me (compared to the money I have to spend and other considerations), I won't buy.

Now, really, do I have to think up reasonable solutions and conditions for those who want to offer a product, before I can safely state here and vote accordingly that I WON'T buy?

Posted Image


Quote:
It is certainly clear that no good can come from video piracy, and yet there is a lot more criticism of anti-piracy methods than there is of those doing the pirating. (Shall we count the number of posts from Cees and Francis where they criticized those that have pirated copies of DVDs VS the number of posts where they criticize copy protection methods?)
Saying what?
I'm a fervent opponent of pirating and illegal copying. Many people on this forum know that. I underwrite the mission of this forum and even help keeping it honoured by others.
Your discussion technique is getting malignant, you are getting personal and your italics are totally uncalled for. Posted Image.

And you're logic is flawed: I'm never criticising "copy protection methods", in general and as such. I have, however been criticising one particular "method", the installation of a rootkit. And you're not telling me (I do hope) that you are defending that method.
I have also questioned certain aspects of the DRM, such as the possibility to "close down" a player bought by someone else. I think it's an unfortunate choice. They can do it: but I won't buy such hardware (firmware). Which is my right.


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#25 of 451 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted January 15 2006 - 11:05 AM

Quote:
Now that truly is “Nonsense”.
Yes it is. But hey, those are your own words it's referring to!


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#26 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 08 2006 - 04:26 PM

If I can afford it, I'll be buying a Blu-ray player (or universal player) in 2006. I'm assuming that Buena Vista will start sending me Blu-ray product to review and naturally I *have* to be able to review it for HTF...right?

BTW, anybody want to contribute to my "help DaViD afford to review Blu-ray disc for HTF" fund?

dave Posted Image
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#27 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 02:16 AM

Dave,

Yes, both HD DVD and Blu-ray players will up/downscale for various resolutions. My projector is 720P so I'll try both 720P and 1080I output (my PJ can't accept full 1080P) and see what looks best. Most players will also upscale standard-def DVD to the selected output resolution (via HDMI) which may or may not improve the quality over your displays own scaling when watching "regular" DVDs. I know that my OPPO DVD player looks clearly better feeding DVDs at 720P to my PJ versus letting the BenQ do the scaling itself.

Is it worth it even if you don't have full 1080P potential?

YES!!! Are you KIDDING?!?! Can you see the improvement with downconverted 1080I on your 720P display versus "normal DVD"? Don't you want to build a sofware library that looks VASTLY BETTER right now on your HD display and will look EVEN BETTER down the road when you upgrade to a (then affordable) 1080P display system?


BTW, let me assure everyone that HD media will look BETTER than DVD even on a standard 480I interlaced TV...no kidding. You don't even need a hi-def monitor to see an improvement. This is because the vast majority of DVDs are over-processed, veritically filtered, and all have compromised color resolution that reduces the color channels to 1/2 what "480" ought to be able to provide.

Downconverted HD even on a 480I TV will look sharper, clearer, more vibrant with superior color and clarity. And it won't even be subtle...it will be like "Wow...that looks better!". If you're torn trying to decide which to upgrade first...TV or HD media...I'd recommend you start buying HD software first. That way you're not continuing to invest in a format that's not future-proof, those new discs will make your current gear look and sound better than it ever has, and when you *do* finally upgrade to your new HD set, prices will be cheaper, quality will be better (maybe full 1080P) and you'll have movies that will be "new all over again" in your library to enjoy on it.


Quote:
I'll wait till 2007 when there is hopefully one format.

And I'll be using my early-adoptor purchase to help make sure that the "one format" we end up with is the *right* one.
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#28 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 02:39 AM

Cory,

That's *exactly* what I'm suggesting.

Even running S-video out of your Blu-ray player will make your NTSC TV look "better than DVD". I first noticed this phenomenon when I worked in AV retail and we installed Sony's old 400Q LCD projector which was limited to 480I input. Feeding it S-video, all our customers always said "WOW! HD looks so much better than DVD!" I'd always scoff and explain how this didn't make sense given that S-video was already limited to NTSC bandwidth and so HD should look no better. Then I saw it with my own eyes at a customer's house one day and my jaw hit the floor. The projector was using its own built-in (bad) deinterlacing to upconvert to 480P and STILL HD input via S-video SMOKED DVD. It looked like a whole-new projector. In fact, it looked "hi def".

A friend of mine has a "525P" DLP projector right now that's offers just a hair more resoution than 720 x 480P. When he feeds it HD via component...it's like looking through a window and the picture generally looks *dramatically* better than even the best DVD. Folks actually talk about this over at AVS quite a bit in the affordable-projector forum. We don't hear about this more only because most people with HD sources also have an HD display...so they're not watching their HD downconverted on their legacy NTSC set.

The reason isn't because HD is doing some sort of magic at the 480 level. It's because it's actually giving you FULL QUALITY 480I/P whereas DVD and all the SD stuff you watch is actually far below what 480 is really capable of showing you. Here's why:
    [*]The unfortunate but typical situation where DVDs are poorly mastered, and over-filterd especially in the vertical domain. This renders the effective vertical resolution of most DVDs well below "480"...often only 1/2 that potential number. Yes!
    [*]The typical compromises of MPEG compression on DVD bring an additional round of filtering and loss of detail. The new Toy Story discs and Super-bit Fifth Element showcase this issue when it's reduced the minimum capable on the DVD format. Basically, all downconverted HD media on your TV will be instant "super bit" SD quality.
    [*]Color space. The B/W channel on your DVD is "720 x 480" but the two color channels are not! They are authored at about 1/2 that resolution to "save space" because your eye is less sensititve to color detail than to luminance detail. MPEG decoders upconvert the color to 720 x 480 during decompression...but it's never as good as the real thing. Since HD starts out with color information already way above 720 x 480...when it's downconverted to SD resolution the color maxes out what "NTSC" is capable of delivering. The result is color that is razor-sharp, and even many modest 480I NTSC sets will look "better" being fed a full-strength signal like downconverted HD.

NOW...a lot of the above will depend on the downconversion circutry of the HD player. I'm assuming that the S-video output wouldn't incur other compromises from (bad) player design. Certainly, if your non-HD set is able to be fed a 480P component video signal...that ought to smoke the pants off of progressive-scan DVD.


Given that 1080P displays are just hitting the market (in direct-view, RP, and projector form), I'd actually recommend to people that they *wait* on a display purchase if they're ready to upgrade something in their HT because in a year or so full-res 1080P HD sets will be as cheap as the 720P/1080I stuff out there right now. And you'll probably save more money waiting and getting that new HD set a year from now than a $1K Blu-ray player...especially if you've got your heart set on 1080P...
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#29 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 02:55 AM

Yep. I know it's a novel thought for most people to think of upgrading to an HD source *before* upgrading to an HD display. But I encourage everyone who's in this "upgrade" situation to read my above post carefully and think about this. The money you'll *save* on waiting a year or so for your 1080P HDTV is probably more than the cost of a first-gen Blu-ray player.

Adding to that the great plus that downconverted HD will (if your set is well designed) look better on your existing NTSC set than even DVD, and you just might have a win-win situation by reversing your purchase plan.
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#30 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 03:28 AM

Mark,

I share your same concerns (your anachronym for EGEEP had my in stiches) and I'm *certain* that we'll hit the same "do it right guys" learning curve with HD we've struggled with on DVD.

But, even non-optimal HD will be a *significant* improvement from non-optimal DVD.

Posted Image

Regarding reviews...I'm right there with you. What's your plan to get a hold of a BD player? I'm flat broke and looking for ideas (since I'll want to have one in my HT system right off the bat to start reviews).
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#31 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 04:12 AM

Andrew,

Warner and New Line are both backing Blu-ray as well. Didn't you know that?

The only studio that's exlsively HD DVD is Universal at this time.

Of course, there are several studios that are exclusively backing Blu-ray (Disney, Fox, MGM/Sony)
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#32 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 09 2006 - 04:12 PM

Did you folks bother to read this post by ChrisDAC?

Quote:
Certainly when a complete High Definition system was first demonstrated in the U.S. in 1988, the HD display was accompanied by a standard 480i display for comparison purposes. The system involved was NHK's analog band-compressed MUSE format, and the display was driven via RGB from the downconversion output of the MUSE decoder. Broadcast engineers who saw it said that the comparison wasn't fair to HD, because the downconvert output was significantly better than standard NTSC.

We're not kidding.

If you can see the improvement of a "super bit" DVD or an anamorphic DVD on your set, then you'll see an even bigger improvement with the S-video or component video feed from a *properly designed* HD source. Now, if someone designs a player that filters the downresed video or has lame analog circutry, don't hold me personally responsible. And naturally bigger displays will make the improvements more noticable. But seriously...if you can see the improvements that "the best" DVDs bring on your display, you'll appreciate at least some of what BD can offer because it will start there and push your set to the max.
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#33 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 06:39 AM

Quote:
Practically everything I've heard about the formats so far has been negative.

1080P 24 mastering/encoding
full 1080P 60Hz output via HDMI
Lossless DTS and DD encoding technology with 24/96 resolution for multi-channel audio
50 gig + potential (BD)
Managed Copy for PC users

That's "negative"???


Quote:
I agree, but frankly non-optimal video is not at all what I'm looking for in justifying the investment necessary to upgrade to Blu-ray. Slightly better than standard DVD just won't cut it.

Marko,

I don't think you get what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that *even* "non-optimal" HD mastering is a HUGE leap in audio/video quality over DVD...not "slightly".

Example:

D-VHS is a VERY compromised HD picture given what can really be done in a 1920 x 1080 matrix. It's over-filtered vertically during mastering for "interlacing" and the analog outputs of the JVC players added additional softening to the image.

Ok, so guess what this "non optimal" HD image looks like in comparison to DVD on my friend's 1080P projector.

It utterly, shockingly, DESTROYS THE BEST DVD. Utterly.


The "non optimized" D-VHS of Moulin Rouge makes the DVD looks like VHS-rubbish. It's lossy-encoded DD soundtrack makes even the DTS on DVD sound like an unlistenable joke.

The "non optimized" D-VHS of Master and Commander makes the DVD look like EE-processed crap. The higher-bit-rate lossy DD on the D-VHS deck makes the DVD audio sound like a "nice try, thanks for playing" wanna-be.

Get what I'm saying...even imperfect HD DVD/Blu-ray mastering early on will stomp all over your little SD-DVDs in ever way shape and form.

That's a good thing. Because it will look great. And as the studios get a clue how to master better, it will only get BETTER still.
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#34 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:21 AM

John,

Obviously you'll need a full 1080P display for full 1080P resolution.

Shocking I know...I guess most HTF members assumed that their 4x3 27" TV would dispay full 1080P resolution?

And when did your DTS/DD receiver ever state that it would be compatible with future lossless codecs? There was never any lossless DTS/DD format for the consumer until this time.

Are you suggesting that our new HD formats shouldn't offer anything better since our old obsolete gear can't provide the full quality of the signal?

Posted Image

THE FACT THAT BOTH DTS AND DD LOSSLESS WILL OFFER BACKWARDS COMPATIBLITY WITH CURRENT RECIEVERS BY DOWNCONVERTING TO LOSSY HIGH-BIT-RATE MAKES THIS A NON ISSUE.

Quote:
I could use a new Upconvering TV Set for my New Sammy LCD and since the LCD only supports up to 768, 1080P support is not an issue.

And your 768P display is the last and best display you plan on owning in the next 10-20 years?


Ok...I've had a bad day so maybe I'm over-reacting in this thread. But the lack of "vision" seems pretty pathetic overall.

I'll bet many of you cried the blues when DVD's new AC-3 didn't work on your old ProLogic receiver. You probably thought that 16x9 and component video was a waste of time since your 4x3 TV couldn't do anything with it. Oh...and since those DVD cost a few bucks more than your VHS-tapes the whole format was a wash. Made lots of sense to keep on investing in VHS for years and years didn't it.

Get the picture.
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#35 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:25 AM

I wouldn't expect the average wall-mart shopper to care about lossless DD/DTS and 1080P potential.

When it comes to the average HTF member, I *would* expect them to care.

And it's not about the gear that you currently own. It's about the format that you plan to invest in that will be taking advantage of the gear that you'll be owning for many years to come.
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#36 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 08:31 AM

Quote:
My point is that we all have different priorities. And we don't have an inexhaustible stash of cash at the ready every time Hollywood comes up with a fantastic money making scheme!

I'm not suggesting that to be a "true believer" in hi-fi video an HTF member has to sell surplus body organs to buy a first-gen HD-disc player. I'm just suggesting that they have to *care* that the highest quality format comes to market and that it gets done right...or...at the very minimum...not to dismiss the hi-fidelity audio and video capability that they will one day care a great deal about.

I cared about 16x9 long before I had a 16x9 TV. I cared about good 5.1 encoding long before I upgraded my my Prologic Reciever. I cared about how DVD looked projected "wide angle" long before I could even consider getting a projector. It's about thinking about where the format ought to go, not just looking to equipment on your rack as the "reference" by which you ought to judge the future quality of your home-theater movie presentation.




Quote:
Please don't presume to paint those of us who express these concerns with the broad brush of "lacking vision" just because we may not share your level of enthusisasm.

I agree. I'm not saying folks shouldn't express their concerns. We all share them and whatever format we end up with will be better for all of us the more people who make their concerns known if the studios and manufactures are listening.

I'm talking about people pretending that the "good stuff" doesn't matter.
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#37 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 09:16 AM

Quote:
"Caring" never got anybody anywhere! "Caring" never even got us a decent Star Wars DVD!

Well, you can't win them all. But we've had *many* victories along the way with DVD and the studios because of people who cared (a WS willy wonka, Fraggle Rock on DVD, a 16x9 RSDL T2...) And make no mistake, the giants Sony and Toshiba may have their heads in the clouds, but there will be *many* industry key-players monitoring what is posted and discussed here.



Ricardo,

Great link! Thanks for proving my point!

Folks go there and hover over those images and check out what I've been saying all along:

http://www.cornbread.org/FOTRCompare/

Quote:
I used Photoshop to bicubically resample the DVD source images from 852x480 to match the 1920x1080 of the HD images. This page features the HD image sampled down to the DVD's resolution of 852x480. Surprisingly, even at DVD-resolution the HD source features more detail.

Amazing. Even when down-resed to "DVD" resolution the HD-source image DESTROYS the DVD. That's right...you could have a 480P TV and see this level of improvement with your new Blu-ray/HD DVD software.

Cool...hugh? Posted Image
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#38 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 10:29 AM

Manus,

never said I wasn't a Blu-ray supporter. I freely admit that I'm partial to 1080P 60Hz output and 50gb+ storage.

Posted Image

Still, my call to fellow HTF members in this thread isn't that they blindly support Blu-ray...it's that they don't cop out and just pick "whatever is cheapest the day of launch" or take a "I don't care because I don't have a 1080P TV" mentality.

BTW, neither am I saying that it's just fine for studios to cop out with low-bar transfers/mastering on first-gen titles. Trust me, if there's EE all over a Blu-ray title I have to review HTF members will be the first to know. My point was that even "non optimized" HD (like we see on D-VHS) is typically *light years* beyond the image quality of even the best DVDs--so if a HT enthusiast really is dead-set on great picture quality...then if they have a problem with studios not doing the absolute best-possible in HD, they have even *less* reason to buy Standard-Def DVD!


Quote:
Nope I think I said that my LCD was bought for the 360 and a stop gap measure until 1080 P arrives in force and is cheaper. At which time I'd move onto Blue Ray if neccessary.

Anyone who plans on upgrading to a 1080P disply within the next 5 years should really think about slowing their DVD purchasing. Even if they don't jump right on the HD bandwagon day one, it will make more sense to invest in 1080P *software* sooner than later. I'd suggest doing the net-flix thing for a year or so and holding out until the outcome of the war is clear and prices drop if that's a concern...but I wouldn't keep on throwing $$ away on standard-def DVD software...at least not the titles that "cry out for HD" that you *know* you'll be buying all over again once you get bit by the HD bug...

-dave
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#39 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 10:36 AM

Rob,

even the "lossy" DD/DTS audio used on the new HD formats will far-exceed the bit-rate on DVD. If D-VHS is any indication of what to expect, lossy audio on HD DVD/Blu-ray will kick major butt.

Lossless is my first choice of course. But I've heard what DD sounds like on D-VHS and it's astonishingly close to "master" quality.
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#40 of 451 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

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Posted January 10 2006 - 10:49 AM

Apologies to all I may have offended in my "lack of vision" generalization (and I did not mean to direct that at people who want to wait on purchasing HD-disc...just certain *reasons* that were being offered).

Realize that comments (paraphrased) like "who cares about 1080P anyway" are hot-buttons for a frenzied videophile warrior like me.

My precious...so beautiful...we loves our 1080P...it came to us...lossless audio compression...it belongs to us...

Posted Image Posted Image
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