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The HD-DVD/Blu-Ray war may become completely irrelevant...ever hear of H-Rom?


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#1 of 17 OFFLINE   Jeffrey Nelson

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Posted January 10 2006 - 06:27 AM

Sorry if this is old news, but I just found out about it: H-Rom, a holographic disc with a capacity of 300GB on a 130mm disc, based on red laser technology, just like today's CDs and DVDs. InPhase made the announcement at this year's CES. From www.physorg.com:


Thoughts, anyone?

InPhase CES announcement at PhysOrg:

#2 of 17 OFFLINE   Jeff_HR

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Posted January 10 2006 - 06:36 AM

Let's settle on ONE technology for playing HD DVDs, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!! Posted Image
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#3 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:00 AM

Thoughts, before Nils chimes in: I like holographic, and there is even a tech out there that stores 30GB on credit-card sized holos which will cost $1 each. (Of course, the player is $8.7K, so there is a problem). However, you can't stamp 'em, which means they take a long time to produce (even at 1GB per second-- the current read speeds-- you're talking about 30 seconds per disk, while even Blu-ray only takes 4 seconds per disk). All in all, as a medium for storing managed copies of Blu-ray or HD DVD content or downloaded HD material, they would be phenomenal. Expecting Hollywood to put movies out on them any time in the next five years: not likely.

#4 of 17 OFFLINE   Ed St. Clair

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:08 AM

What studio's have announced support?
Movies are: "The Greatest Artform".
HD should be for EVERYONE!

#5 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:09 AM

lol

#6 of 17 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

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Posted January 10 2006 - 07:35 AM

which is why i don't expect that the current HD formats will be anything other than a niche product (like laserdisc was) for their lifespans. i think its foolish to worry and wait for a format war to play out because by the time it does (at least 5 years i'm thinking before someone throws in the towel- if either do), this will be an antiquated technology in comparision and the next unified format and technology will be on the horizon. kinda funny when Bd fans tout the superiority of the format primarily because it offers a mind boggling 5 gbs more per layer and all the goodies that entails.

#7 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 10 2006 - 08:16 AM

I tout the format because it has a mind boggling "all of the studios minus one"; I'm fairly agnostic when it comes to the hardware differences between the two, although I can understand why others might not be.

#8 of 17 OFFLINE   Paul_Scott

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Posted January 10 2006 - 08:33 AM

but as has been pointed out in other threads, that doesn't mean that a studios titles will be consisitent across both formats. they may be, in which case Bd would look like the better (although at this point certainly more expensive) option. well have to wait and see though. and i expect Universal will probably be releasing titles on the other format as well at some point.

#9 of 17 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted January 10 2006 - 02:31 PM

" Warner Bros.because they want to be able to say, "See, we told you guys red laser was the bomb!!
"You bring a horse for me?" "Looks like......looks like we're shy of one horse." "No.......You brought two too many."

#10 of 17 OFFLINE   Jeffrey Nelson

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Posted January 10 2006 - 06:52 PM

What? Ya lost me, coach. Whaddya mean ya can't stamp 'em?

#11 of 17 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted January 10 2006 - 08:52 PM

Mr. Brez will correct me if I am wrong. The media used for storage is light sensitive. A laser beam is split into two beams. One for a reference and the other as the writing tool. The data to be stored is translated into a "page" consisting of light and dark pixels. The two lasers are focussed onto the storage media. Where the two beams meet within the media is where the holographic image of the "page" of data is stored. The data is basically stored as an interference pattern within the light sensitive media. There are no pits, therefore the discs can't be stamped. They have to be written with a laser system. The massive storage capacity comes from the fact that the entire depth of the media can be used for writing and reading purposes, rather than just the surface like a regular disc. The storage capacity of a holographic storage system seems to be only limited by how precisely the focal length of the laser beams can be varied. Guess I shouldn't have referred to this as vaporware in another thread. I took a look at their website and it looks like they are really quite close to marketing their product. I still don't think that it is going to be an economically viable CE media anytime soon.
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#12 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 11 2006 - 03:06 AM

Edwin covered this for the most part, but some background: CDs, DVDs (and their younger brethren in the HD set) are stamped out from a master copy. This is a very mechanical and well known process, and is one of the reasons why DVD is significantly cheaper than the VHS tapes it replaced: every VHS tape had to be recorded (albeit at higher speeds than typical play speeds), which took time. In DVD, the time taken was just the manufacture of the disks-- "recording" to them was part of the physical manufacturing process. Thus, the typical assembly line can put out a disk every 2-4 seconds or so. You can't do this with holographic, as it's written and read with a pair of lasers, as Edwin explained. Thus your processing time not only encompasses the manufacture of the disks, but it is also limited to the write speed of the disks-- which is currently unknown, though the read speed is rated at 1GBps, currently. A return to VHS-length processing times, in other words, which makes them more expensive and hence less profitable. Don't get me wrong, I drool over the tech. It's just not very practical in terms of mass distribution of media. In five years, if write speeds are 20GBps? Entirely possible. But I wouldn't count on it, and I certainly won't curtail my purchase of HD disks based on something which might be ready in 5+ years, just as I didn't stop buying DVDs in 2001 because blue-laser was being developed.

#13 of 17 OFFLINE   ChristopherDAC

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Posted January 11 2006 - 03:30 AM

Actually, it is possible to stamp out holograms. RCA and CBS both did this in the early '70s with Holotape and EVR, respectively. The process was rather complex, involving an electron-beam processing step, and I seem to recall that it did not produce particularly good yeilds, but it can be done. The biggest problem with holographics, the factor which has kept the holographic data storage technique from reaching the market in any significant form for 35+ years [it's a lot like fusion power: the researchers say "oh, in about five years" every year] is that it is, in the terms used by one of the developers of LaserDisc, an "image-based" rather than a "signal-based" medium. Unlike, say, a CD drive, which only has to track its way along a spiral of pits and record the variation as pit gives way to land, the holographic system has to capture a precisely-aligned matrix of pixels. I don't look for it to be consumer-suitable any time soon, even though CMOS imagers have replaced the little tube cameras of the 1970s.

#14 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 11 2006 - 04:22 AM

Christopher, I'm not sure the "holograms" from those technologies are the same type of technology as the current concept of holographic storage, but I would love to learn more. Do you have a couple of links?

#15 of 17 OFFLINE   PaulP

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Posted January 11 2006 - 04:29 AM

Doesn't the HVD format hold up to 3.9 Terabytes? That's the one we should wait for.

#16 of 17 OFFLINE   ChristopherDAC

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Posted January 11 2006 - 04:35 AM

Sorry, only printed references, but I think I have some scans I could post. EVR and Holotape used Fourier holograms of the TV signal, and I think the holographic disc proposals would work the same way. You take the incoming one-dimensional signal [video signal, data stream] and break it up into "chunks", each occupying a limited period of time. Then -- if I'm recalling this correctly -- you modulate a chunk onto two beams at right angles to each other, and scanning the resultant interference patterns allows you to rebuild the signal. Thanks to quantum mechanics, you can use electron beams to make holograms; either electron beams or light beams can be used to expose something like a photoresist, which when developed will have a relief pattern on it corresponding to the interference fringes. This can be used to stamp out replicas, in the same way LD, CDs, DVDs, &c. are stamped from photoresist masters [by way of various intermediate processes, of course].

#17 of 17 OFFLINE   Aaron_Brez

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Posted January 11 2006 - 04:52 AM

Interesting. Very interesting. I'm pretty sure the holo storage has multiple layers, which adds significant complexity, but if you're right, it looks to be doable. Certainly not far along enough in this timeframe, but it might not be too insane in 5 years or so.




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