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Make it easy like SVS


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#1 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 07 2005 - 09:06 AM

Have been reading this sight for along time now and this is my first time posting anything and hate typing so please be easy on me. I recently purchased a new SVS PB12+2 thanks to the reviews on this sight. If anyone is thinking of buying a new sub and are leery of on line buying and not being able to test drive the product as was I, look no further than svs. I have owned both m&k, sunfire, and velodyne which were all good sounding subs. But none held a candle to the svs. Stuff said like that made my decision easy in purchasing. Anyway I have a question about my three front speakers. My mains are both polk rt 55i and the center is a def tech clr2500. At high volumes my system starts to sound shrill and am assuming it is the def tech that is the problem in the system (by itself it sounds boxy and tinny). I run an entertainment company so suffice it to say I have enough power going to all speakers, (have allot of extra amps). Am running a dennon 3805. My room size is 25 by 30 with a 7' ceiling. As with the svs, to me it seemed cut and dry as to what I needed to get for a subwoofer from reading reviews here. But for some reason reviews on actual speakers are making it not so easy to pick either on line or at local store. If SVS were making tower speakers at this time I would not question it and buy them, I am that impressed with my first purchase from them. I have allot of room to fill with volume and also need three front matching speakers so am looking to upgrade my front three speakers and any help from you all would be really appreciated. I hope this post makes sense, like I said I hate typing and the words don't always come out right on screen.

#2 of 39 OFFLINE   MikeLi

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Posted October 07 2005 - 10:13 AM

I have been through many speakers for my HT in the last 10 years. Wasted a lot of money on things as well that I wound up not liking and having to change. I won't go into a lot of names but some of the speakers I had were good brand name speakers, NHT, Alantic Tech, and other known names. I finally tried, either ordered or went to someones house and listened to several internet brand speakers. I found I had likes and dislikes but one thing for sure is you usually can get twice the speaker for the same cost. Money was not really an issue with me as I wanted this to be my last speaker purchase in a very long time. This is just my personal opinion and any thing that should be done as far as your concerned should be done by listening as everyones ears are different, peoples expectations are different and such. Anyway I finally found what I was looking for with a Onix Rocket set up which included the 750's, 200 Center (best center I ever have had period) and 300's for surrounds. I also have a new pair of bigger front sides (850's) coming and going to use the 750's for rear duty. They are done with real wood veneer which was important to me as my HT is in my large family room and you walk by the side of a very large speaker next to my entertainment center and other furniture, I had tried other brands that were vinyl veneers and just didn't match the real oak of my furniture at all. If things were smaller it might have worked but this way it didn't at all. That was also the a seller point. I have also had numerous subs. Dual NHT's and such, I got an SVS PB12+2 (when I got it it was then the PB2+2) and there was no compairison to others that I had... absolutly blew me away. I have since got a PB12 Ultra in Oak to match things and its working very well. Remember this is my opinion and mine only and others will have theirs. You really need to do some research here and other places and also get out and listen to some speakers. There are many good ones out there. Good luck and keep us posted. Mike

#3 of 39 OFFLINE   SteveCallas

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Posted October 07 2005 - 12:06 PM

Actually, SVS is coming out with a speaker line, I believe before Christmas. If you can't wait, I would view Ascend Acoustics or Onix Rockets as the SVS of speakers.

#4 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 07 2005 - 12:22 PM

Hey mike thanks for the reply. I will look into the rckets a little more. Unfortunatley everyone says to audition speakers is the key but if they are online you cannot. With the SVS it was made easy and I was not dissapionted by my purchase in fact very impressed. If you are buyin online and the money is going into the build quality( as with SVS) than wouldnt these online speakers that have been mentioned alot on this forum be a better purchase than say through a local retailer of other known brands? For my room size do you think those rockets would have enough output. Is the center channel beefy enough for theater volumes? And lastly I know bookshelf verse tower threads are aplenty but would my room size warrant the swicth? Thanks again.

#5 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 07 2005 - 12:24 PM

Steve, I will look into both of those then. But still have that tower verses bookshelf question. I would think you would get better dynamic range from a tower and more out put correct me if I am wrong on this. SVS told me the speakers would be smaller book shelf speakers and not big enough for my room size.

#6 of 39 OFFLINE   MikeyWeitz

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Posted October 07 2005 - 12:41 PM

Ascend 340s LCR and SVS 16-46pc+. Luv'em!

#7 of 39 OFFLINE   Garrett Lundy

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Posted October 08 2005 - 02:20 AM

Klipsch THX-Ultra series (you do have a really big room to fill)
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#8 of 39 OFFLINE   Chris Quinn

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Posted October 08 2005 - 03:08 AM

Ron Stimpson the S in SVS has Ascends in his HT.

#9 of 39 OFFLINE   MikeLi

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Posted October 08 2005 - 03:56 AM

I have found after about 5 different store bought good center speakers that I have not been able to beat the Rocket 200 (they call it bigfoot) is it is bigger than most but also keeps you from constantly staying on the remote volume up and down between dialog and action sceens. That alone is what really made this Rocket package sing and do it for me. I am set now for many many years and feel you can save a lot. There are also many folks out there that love Axiom and Ascend a lot too. I think I explained above why they did not work for me due to the vinyl wrap or looks. This does not effect folks that have dedicated theaters or have their stuff all up front where its not quite so noticable. Again they are good speakers as well. Also there are quite a few folks on the Rocket forum that have both Axiom and Rockets and could comment a lot better than I could. Just go over and ask. This is not a slam on Axiom or Ascend so please don't anyone take it that way. They are a great speaker and companys as well. Good luck. If I can help more just let me know. What some have done to save shipping charges is just order a center from each and try it and you will also get to see build qualities and such and any differences sound wise. Then send the ones you don't like back, the best order the rest of a package and any company will still give you the package price. As with anything its better to find and see if someone in your area will let you demo theirs but that is not always possible. Any amount you spend in shipping will be worth it in the long run and you will still have saved money for a better product as far as I am concerned. Good luck and keep us posted. Mike

#10 of 39 OFFLINE   Brian Fellmeth

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Posted October 08 2005 - 04:03 AM

I would take issue with this statement. Neither dynamic range nor output (above 80 Hz)are really related to the box volume, which is the only difference between towers and bookshelves (presuming woofer diameter is the same). Book shelves exist that are flat to 60-70 Hz, and the sub takes care of below that. Towers are only needed if there is no sub or there is a desire to cross the sub really low like 40-50 Hz. In the latter case, the mains would have to cover 45-60 Hz well, and that is where the extra box volume of a tower would be put to use.

#11 of 39 OFFLINE   Alex Prosak

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Posted October 08 2005 - 08:12 AM

James, I'll back up what Mike says. I'm running a Rocket 750/200/300/150 7.1 system (SVS sub) in my family room (30' x 27' x 8') with an Outlaw 950/7100 combo. In terms of volume in this size a room, I can push my system to ear bleeding levels if I so desire. The only center channel speaker I've personally heard that can compete with the 200 is a B&W Nautilus HTM1 and those go for $2,000 each. AV123 is currently running a sale on their 750 packages and you can get all five speakers (not including shipping) for less than the price of the HTM1. Ascend and Axiom are also good choices. It really depends on your preferences. The impression I've received from those who have both is that even those who prefer the sound of Axiom over the Rockets typically feel the 200 center is better than Axioms centers.

#12 of 39 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted October 08 2005 - 09:55 AM

I would be careful thinking that just because a speaker is crossed over at XHz, that it will have the same sound output (i.e. SPL) as a larger speaker.

Because when a speaker manufacturer tests the power input capability of a speaker system (woofer + tweeter), unless things have changed recently they don't use a crossover. This means the woofer will receive the source's full bass signal and as anyone who has stressed out a speaker knows, 99% of the time it's the woofers that let you know when the speaker system is being pushed to its limits, usually by a nasty banging sound. But when tweeters are overloaded? They usually just quietly stop working with little-to-no warning. So a tweeter's xover is not just designed to blend it carefully with the woofer, but is also designed with the system's max wattage input in mind* (this is why the majority of high-SPL speakers include a midrange).

What does this all mean? Say that we have a speaker system that is officially rated at, say, 75 continuous watts with a full range signal. On the surface it would seem reasonable to assume that it should be able to take more power with a user-chosen xover at 80Hz because of all that really low bass being taken out, BUT it is just the woofer that is getting fed a less aggressive signal. But the tweeter's xover is unchanged and if the user keeps cranking up the volume, the woofer will happily keep putting out its neutered bass signal with no audible distortion (not forever though!) while the tweeter is still being fed its full signal, then finally......pop.....no more cymbals, bells, vocal sibilants, etc.

So unless a speaker comes with a chart detailing its power handling capability vs. X crossover point, I would be very careful with that volume knob.

* the lower a tweeter's xover point is, the less power it can absorb because it is receiving lower and lower frequencies. But with large woofers a lower tweeter xover is better since such woofers don't reproduce the higher frequencies very well. So choosing the best system xover point is tricky & involves carefully juggling several different-& sometimes opposing-requirements.

#13 of 39 OFFLINE   Lee-c

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Posted October 09 2005 - 04:32 AM

James: I think the company you are looking for is VMPS. VMPS is the SVS of speakers, in my opinion.
By that, I mean superb quality sound for a price that is very reasonable, far less than anything
that can really compete with them. And there are very few speakers that can compete with them
at any price. Ask the people at the VMPS forum (link below) who have auditioned and/or owned
much more expensive speakers, and they will tell you that the VMPS speakers are superior to
all or almost all other (these are usually the super expensive ones) speakers they have heard.

Each speaker is hand-built and tested by the fellow who designed the speakers, Brian Cheney,
at his home/workshop in California. I have the VMPS RM2 main floorstanding speakers and
I can say the sound is truly world-class. The resolution is incredible. And the sound
is smooth as silk. Posted Image As far as volume, the RM2's in my room (20 x 12.5 x 8) can handle a full 105dB+
at 13 feet from the speakers per Cheney himself. Posted Image And they each have a super high quality
12 inch woofer (mega woofer upgrade option - 80oz. magnet) that can put out some serious bass.
Which then allows you to crossover to the SVS at a lower point for an even more seamless
crossover to the SVS. You could easily crossover at 60Hz or lower with these and not miss any bass,
that is how powerful the bass is with these RM2's. Posted Image

VMPS also has excellent stand-mounted monitors called 626R's if you want to keep the cost a bit lower.
The nice thing about the VMPS line is that all the RM series speakers share the same basic sonic character,
so they go together perfectly in a surround sound setup. VMPS also has a top-quality center channel
speaker designed to sit on or in front of your t.v. called the LRC, which would be a perfect match
to the RM2's or the 626R's.

VMPS won the best of high-end audio award at CES two years in a row, and that was against
all comers, including some $30,000+ speaker setups. Posted Image So we're talking about true high-end sound
quality without having to pay the wildly inflated prices it would normally cost to get such speakers.

You can find out more about VMPS by checking out their web site and by reading the VMPS forum
at the links below. Any question you have can be answered there, and the speaker designer,
Brian Cheney, posts there, as well. And you can see what many very knowledgeable stereo enthusiasts
think of VMPS speakers. Posted Image

http://www.vmpsaudio.com/

http://www.audiocirc....9b7a7b2824bfe6

#14 of 39 OFFLINE   Shane Martin

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Posted October 09 2005 - 04:57 AM

It could be but it could also be your system is running out of juice.

#15 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 09 2005 - 08:33 AM

Thank you guys for all the replys . Internet was down for three days so could not get back.I will look into all these speaker solutions now and feel that it is my speakers that are to small for the room and that is why I was thinking of going with tower speakers. But from what has been said here is that towers are no better off than bookshelf (pros and cons). So am still baffeld by what to do if for sheer space filling volume. I have enough base with that SVS godsend sitting in front of me!
As far as power is concerned (here I can smile)I can run over 10000 watts to my system if need be and that is not a bloated guess. I run a Disc jockey business and have qsc plx 3402s at my disposal 700watts per channel at 8 ohm.
Am currently running a crown 250 wattx1 to center carver m400 200 watt x2 to surrounds and a qsc powerlight to the mains 300 wattx2 the dennon 3805 runs the surround back. I would think that this is adequate power for a 7.1 but do have a big room to fill. In my own small mind I was thinking the only real upgrade I could make at this piont was the speakers and being my front three do not match now was a good time to do the upgrade for at least the fronts.
The rockets do not show a listing of the power rating for thier speakers. Agian was assuming that in order to have the big sound or at least enough to fill my room the speakers would need to handle a desent amount of power. Again I now just enough to get myself in trouble and that is why I look to you guys for the real sollutions and not my own judgment. Running entertainment equipment for a wedding does not require finness from the equipment but home theater is not the same way by any means brute force but with finness. Posted Image

#16 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 09 2005 - 08:39 AM

Lee I think that is what I am missing is a spe4aker that cna put out maybe a little more on the low end than my polk rt 55i and thus get more volume. Again I appreciate all you folks giving this advice and consume it religously. Been reading your posts forever and decided to jump in on the fun and get some helpful ideas. And its already paid off in a big way! Thanks again to all

#17 of 39 OFFLINE   Shane Martin

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Posted October 09 2005 - 02:39 PM

James, The brightness could very well be the amps. Pro Amps like that are not known to be for sound quality rather than quantity. I know my Carver adds some added shrillness to my system.

#18 of 39 OFFLINE   SteveCallas

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Posted October 10 2005 - 05:16 AM

A quality amp will not add its own sonic signature, pro amp or otherwise.

#19 of 39 OFFLINE   james vaughan

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Posted October 10 2005 - 05:33 AM

Steve, Is there such thing as clean power versus dirty as in an audible difference in the quality of the sound from one amp to another not volume but a better sound impression? Had a chat with the guys at guitar center about clean amps and they did not know what I was talking about. Even in my entertainment business I try to run "clean" sound. In that area of sound it may not be louder but may sound louder because of good clean sound. I think that made sense.

#20 of 39 OFFLINE   Andrew Pratt

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Posted October 10 2005 - 05:55 AM

Almost all pro amps are designed for your type of business i.e. be built rugged, can handle heat and be reliable. Sound quality isn't their priority as in most cases you're not aiming for audiophile sound in the environments these get used it. I'd suggest that you at least try a power amp intended for home use and see if you don't see a dramatic reduction in the shrillness you now hear. Now there are some pro amps that can sound decent (Crown K1, K2) but these aren't cheap either and even then their designer doesn't recomend using them in audiophile systems.

That said speakers are usually where you get the most change in sound quality in most systems (other then the room) so upgrading your speakers isn't without merit. The VMPS suggestion is solid as they're great speakers. Axioms are good as well but the larger VMPS models are more inline with the SVS mantra of go big or go home Posted Image




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