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#41 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 02 2005 - 05:02 PM

Quote:
Drew, what's wrong with fluoride?


Brian, there is a growing body of evidence coming forward that the use of flouride is based on junk science. Do you know that fluoride was never approved by the FDA?

According to the head of the Canadian Dental Association's (CDA):"The evidence supporting the effectiveness of dietary fluoride supplements is relatively weak... There's better evidence indicating that they contribute to dental fluorosis."

The CDA recommends no fluoride supplements be used in infants until the permanent teeth appear at around age six or seven, when the risk of fluorosis is diminished. Unfortunately american dentists all come up through the same training and are reluctant to bad mouth their sacred cow.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#42 of 60 Kwang Suh

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Posted September 02 2005 - 07:05 PM

Quote:
You do realize that you can buy ordinary table salt without iodine, right? Or use kosher salt, which also doen't contain iodine. It isn't like the choices are iodized or sea salt.
Yes, I realize this. I just didn't want to be portentious with the wording Posted Image I just buy whatever non-iodized salt I can find, whether it's kosher, sea, whatever.

I eat out enough that I'm fairly certain that I'm safe from goiters. Posted Image

I can taste the iodine when I make soup. It adds a slight metallic taste that I hate. Since I don't want to have salt just for soup, I just use the salt for everything else.

Quote:
Do you know that fluoride was never approved by the FDA?
Neither were oranges and mushrooms. I still eat them.

Really, if you really want to base what you're exposed to based on what the EPA hsa tested and knows, I suggest you get off this planet immediately.

#43 of 60 BrianW

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Posted September 02 2005 - 10:03 PM

Do you know that fluoride was never approved by the FDA?
I'm pretty sure that fluoride, because of its classification as an additive, not a drug, isn't even eligible for FDA approval. Saying that the FDA never approved fluoride is a bit like saying that the National Bowling League never approved ballroom dancing.

What does the ADA have to say about fluoride?
-Brian
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#44 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 12:02 AM

Quote:
Neither were oranges and mushrooms. I still eat them.


Is that your best argument in favour of flouride? Have fun with that...
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#45 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 01:00 AM

Australia's Dental Service has also spoken out aganst fluoride. This wouldn't be the first time America has lagged behind the world in science.

Look, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I've done my research and made up my mind. Want a nice simple life? Just follow the ADA and be happy. Ignorance is bliss.

Do you have an academic calling to question the satus quo and form your OWN opinions based on scientific data? Then go to Web MD, British Medical Journal and Pub Med, etc and do your own research. You will find arguments for and against fluoride.

My MIL works at the Mayo so I have access to most studies - you may also find a few online. You can for sure find these studues at any decent library, happy reading:

Crystal Wyand, spokesperson, FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, e-mail correspondence.

Brian A. Burt, "The Case for Eliminating the Use of Dietary Fluoride Supplements for Young Children," Journal of Public Health Dentistry (Fall 1999): 269.

Euan Swan, "Dietary Fluoride Supplement Protocol for the New Millennium," J Can Dent Assoc 66 (2000): 362-363.

National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference Statement, "Diagnosis and Management of Dental Caries Throughout Life " (March 26-28, 2001).

"Dental Association Blames Children's Tooth Decay on Too Much Soda Pop," Associated Press (April 15, 2000). detnews.com

Hardy Limeback, BSc, PhD, DDS, Letter of Concern, April 2000.

"Is there a need for fluoride supplements?," Health Department of Western Australia, Dental Services. http://www.q-net.net....es/Fsupps.html

Warren et al., "Systemic Fluoride Sources, Amounts, and Effects of Ingestion," Cariology (October 1999): 695-707.

"The Story of Fluoridation, " National Institute of Dental Research.

Newbrun, "The Case for Reducing the Current Council on Dental Therapeutics Fluoride Supplementation Schedule," Journal of Public Health Dentistry (Fall 1999): 263.

US Centers for Disease Control Fluoridation Census, 1992.

US Department of Health and Human Services, "Oral Health in America: A Report of the Surgeon General" (May 2000): 167.

IMS Health, a company that provides information to the pharmaceutical and healthcare industries.

F. Rojas-Sanchez et al., "Fluoride intake from foods, beverages, and dentifrice by young children in communities with negligibly and optimally fluoridated water: A pilot study," Community Dent Oral Epidemiol 27 (August 1999): 288-297.

Levy et al., "Infants' Fluoride Ingestion from Water, Supplements, and Dentifrice," Journal of the American Dental Association (December 1995): 1625.

Michael Downey, "A crack appears in the fluoride front," Toronto Star (April 25, 1999).

M. S. McDonagh et al., "Systematic Review of Water Fluoridation," British Medical Journal 321, no. 7265 (October 7, 2000): 855-859.

Douglas Carnall, "Website of the Week: Water Fluoridation." British Medical Journal

Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, "Benefits and Risks of Water Fluoridation," report released in January 2001.

Seppa et al., "Caries Trends 1992-1998 in Two Low-Fluoride Finnish Towns Formerly with and without Fluoridation," Caries Res. 34, no. 6 (November-December 2000): 462-468.

Kunzel et al., "Caries Prevalence after Cessation of Water Fluoridation in LaSalud, Cuba," Caries Res. 34, no.1 (January-February 2000): 20-25.

Kunzel et al., "Decline of Caries Prevalence after the Cessation of Water Fluoridation in the Former East Germany," Community Dent Oral Epidemiol. 28, no. 5 (October 2000): 382-389.

Brian A. Burt et al., "The Effects of a Break in Water Fluoridation on the Development of Dental Caries and Fluorosis," J Dent Res. 79, no. 2 (February 2000): 761-769.

Maupome et al., "Patterns of Dental Caries Following the Cessation of Water Fluoridation," Community Dent Oral Epidemiol. 29, no. 1 (February 2001): 37-47.

Kalsbeek et al., "Caries Experience of 15-year-old Children in the Netherlands after Discontinuation of Water Fluoridation," Caries Res. 27, no. 3 (1999): 201-205.

US Department of Health and Human Services, "Oral Health and the State: Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP)."

US Department of Health and Human Services, "Oral Health in America: A Report of the Surgeon General" (May 2000): 250
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#46 of 60 BrianW

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Posted September 03 2005 - 02:12 AM

Look, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything.
But there are those of us who are willing to be convinced. Speaking for myself, I'm always willing to be convinced I'm wrong, and I'm always willing to confess ignorance and learn something new.
Want a nice simple life? Just follow the ADA and be happy. Ignorance is bliss.
There's no reason to get testy. Posted Image Ignorance is also excusable as long as it isn't willful. To that extent, I'm extremely grateful for your long list of papers to research. Thank you, very kindly.
-Brian
Come, Rubidia. Let's blow this epoch.

#47 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 02:26 AM

Brian, you're welcome. Sorry for the testy bit...I was dealing with my 15 month old and trying to finish the post at the same time. I'm encouraged that there are still people left with an open mind like yourself. Best.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#48 of 60 BrianW

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Posted September 03 2005 - 02:40 AM

Testy? Nah! (See smiley above.) More peer-reviewed data is always a good thing, which you seem to know.

My problem with regard to fluoride, as with many other aspects of life, is that all I know is what I've been told. I haven't researched fluoride any more than I've researched the link between fluorescent lights and Alzheimer's disease, or the extent to which vertical blinds add to a room's perceived height. I can do only so much (and still watch DVDs Posted Image) to make sure I know about every bad thing I encounter.

But this seems important to you, so I'll definitely check it out. Thanks again.
-Brian
Come, Rubidia. Let's blow this epoch.

#49 of 60 RobertR

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Posted September 03 2005 - 02:50 AM

Quote:
Yeah, the EPA...what do they know!
I never said the EPA doesn't have competent scientists. I said that they are an entity that is subject to political influence, and labeling a reference as "obscure" doesn't refute that.

Your references to fluoride are quite welcome, by the way.

#50 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 02:58 AM

Brian, you're right...there are only so many hours in the day and life must go on. Throw in a 15 month old and I'm lucky to have 2-3 hours a day of personal time. Fluoride is not that important to me - I've been using it all my life and continue to do so. But I won't turn a stubborn eye to common sense in the name of tradition. We all get to the truth eventually, and if a few of us wither along the way..well, so be it. Remember lead in paint in the 70's and earlier? Asbestos?

It's not all gloom and doom...but if I can help provide a better future for my daughter, health-wise and other, then I've done my job as a parent. As for me, I grew up in a developing country where a favourate past time was cracking thermometers and playing with the mercury in my hands...let's see how hardy I'll be! Posted Image
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#51 of 60 Kwang Suh

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Posted September 03 2005 - 04:02 AM

Quote:
Is that your best argument in favour of flouride? Have fun with that...
You're missing the point. Since you have stated that one of the reasons that you avoid Fluoride is because the EPA has a contraindication against it, I merely extended that to products that the EPA has never tested, which is a very extensive list.

It seems to me that you latch onto the Fluoride thing because it's something that's been in the news for time eternal. You don't want to know how many other chemicals you're exposed to that the EPA has never tested, regulated and will never test and regulate. The list is in the hundreds of thousands.

Like I stated before, if you don't want to be exposed to man-made chemicals, get off the planet.

And where have I stated an opinion regarding Fluoride?

#52 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 04:13 AM

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Like I stated before, if you don't want to be exposed to man-made chemicals, get off the planet.


Wow, you're brilliant. Thanks for stating the obvious...we would be lost without your input.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#53 of 60 Joseph DeMartino

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Posted September 03 2005 - 05:33 AM

So what does the topical use of flouride in toothpaste, where it is clearly not a "dietary supplement", have to do with a study from whatever source arguing that flouride shouldn't be used as a dietary supplement?

And before everyone starts signing up for the latest "scienfitic study", let's remember how many previous peer-reviewed, deadly serious, widely-heralded scientific studies have turned out, upon further review, to be total nonsense. Salt is OK, salt is going to kill you, no, salt doesn't really make a difference. Saccharin is so deadly it must be banned. Whoops! Not really so bad after all. Sorry, we goofed. One recent study shows that a shockingly high percentage of medical and scientific studies have their conclusions substantially or totally reverseed within 3 to 5 years. Of course, that study's own conclusions could be reversed in 3 to 5 years. (And would that disprove it or prove it? Posted Image)

Millions of people have died unnecessarily around the world in the past 30 or 40 years because some zealots got DDT banned. Some people thought that massive, long-term exposure ot DDT might lead to increased cancer deaths. Meanwhile we know malaria kills, and we know DDT is the most effective method of controlling the misquitoes who spread malaria. Junk science isn't just stupid and wasteful, it kills people. Public policy should never be based solely on scientific "studies" much less on a single scientific study, but it happens all the time. And that's a much greater danger to more people than all the flouride ever used on this planet.

In the end we all have to apply our understanding, our learning (from as wide a variety of sources as possible - including some that flatly contradict one another - and always with an eye out for bias and ways in which the data might be hyped or shaped or even omitted to bolster the desired conclusion), our common sense and our own experience of life and human nature and draw our own conclusions about things.

Quote:
Wow, you're brilliant. Thanks for stating the obvious...we would be lost without your input.

There's that testiness again. Maybe he stated the obvious because some of your posts suggest you don't always see the obvious - perhaps the view is blocked by that chip on your shoulder.

Regards,

Joe

#54 of 60 Drew Bethel

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Posted September 03 2005 - 05:51 AM

Here is where I throw in the towel:

"So what does the topical use of flouride in toothpaste, where it is clearly not a "dietary supplement", have to do with a study from whatever source arguing that flouride shouldn't be used as a dietary supplement? "

Sounds good Joe, we'll just take your word for it then! Posted Image Posted Image

Have a great holiday folks.
"The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life." Muhammed Ali, (Cassius Clay)

#55 of 60 SarahG

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Posted September 06 2005 - 03:07 AM

Beyond the toothpaste and flouride argument, I did a little research this weekend on some products claiming to be all natural. I looked at Burt's Bees and they define all-natural ingredients as products harvested from the ground. They do list some products from their line that are 100% natural, according to this definition. Some of their products are not 100% natural. But, they have things like beeswax bananna hand creme, overnight cremes, and pore refining masks that contain ingredients, every one of which meets the standards for their definition. Other products they list as 94.7% all nautural, 97.4%, etc...

Anyway, the 100% natural products seem legit to me.
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#56 of 60 Rob Gardiner

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Posted September 06 2005 - 03:14 AM

Sarah,

Your research has established how Burt's Bees defines the term "natural", but the results beg the question: in what way are their natural products superior to other, "non-natural" products?

#57 of 60 Chu Gai

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Posted September 06 2005 - 03:42 AM

I'd be curious as to how they QC the incoming raw materials, natural or otherwise.

#58 of 60 SarahG

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Posted September 06 2005 - 05:28 AM

Quote:
Your research has established how Burt's Bees defines the term "natural", but the results beg the question: in what way are their natural products superior to other, "non-natural" products?

Good question. That's what I'm hoping to find out. I just want to try something new and see how I like this stuff. Based on what I've read, and this opinion may differ from person to person, but I like the idea of using a product that may be less harsh or less irratable on my skin than some other products. We'll see if Burt's works out for me.
Fish are Friends, not Food!

#59 of 60 SarahG

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Posted September 21 2005 - 03:20 AM

Well, just an update. I haven't picked up anything yet, but a friend of mine picked up the Burt's Bees almond hand creme. She said she likes it so far and it's one of the 100% natural products.
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#60 of 60 Chris Lockwood

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Posted September 21 2005 - 03:31 AM

> NOTE: the link I provided is from a source that strives to present a neutral point of view, while the link that Robert R provides (in the post above this one) is from a partisan (Libertarian) publication.

Nice try, but Reason is not a partisan magazine.


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