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It's Official: HD DVD and Blu-ray Can Limit High Resolution To HDMI Only


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#21 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 04:41 AM

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Sony isn't some benevolent entity
No one said they were. What we're talking about is them gaining a competitive advantage (ie making money) by not doing what HD-DVD is doing.

#22 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 08:35 AM

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I think we all need to calm down some, and realize that none of this is 100% official yet.

The whole point of the thread being started is that the “HDMI only” mandate is official. You are naïve to think that these people will be “benevolent” for one thing and not others.

Quote:
I don't believe an Internet connection will be required, it will be too much like divxThe studios will likely use the software (our movies) to put the "nuclear" option into effect if they had to. However, while its possible for them to do this, I don't see how they could and still believe they have a profitable product. The HD camp just hasn't gotten everything squared away, and instead of sending them "demands", we should confidently voice our concerns.

Exactly how are they supposed to know that they won’t make money doing this bullshit if we don’t DEMAND that they not do it (or else not buy it)?

Quote:
We can't actually boycott anything until its released anyways.
So what? The point is that we organize NOW and let them know BEFOREHAND that the boycott WILL occur if they try this stuff.

#23 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 08:48 AM

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they wont get full 1080p transmissions because component isn't capable of carrying it.
That doesn't apply to RGBHV (which is what every 1080p capable set with analog connections that I've seen uses anyway). I log on here using a CRT monitor that's easily capable of it.

#24 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 08:56 AM

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The studios are the ones behind the harsh copyright restrictions, so unless you're prepared to boycott all DVD and theatrical products from them as well, they'll just shrug at your refusal to buy 1080p films and take your money another way.
The point is not that they “take our money” at all, it’s that we be satisfied with what we are paying for. An article in today’s LA Times talks about how the DVD market has matured, and the studios can no longer count on huge growth for it. As with previous audio/video media, they want to find a way to create a new market to milk. But if people don’t buy into their concept, that new market will fail, which means that they’ll be stuck with the old, nongrowing market. They won’t be happy with that.

#25 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 09:12 AM

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Then will have iShows, where low-bitrate HDTV that the masses will "know" is high-def ("it looks good enough to me, Divx codec looks as good as DVD and fits on a single CD-ROM!") is sold by the millions
Sounds like a sure flop to me. Knowledgeable early adopters would ignore it, and the “masses” will ignore it also, for the same reason that they ignore SACD and DVD Audio (“why should I buy this when DVD looks just as good to my eyes?”).

The studios would be SOL.

#26 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 09:47 AM

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HD-DVD/Blu-ray flop and the only HD content available will be downloadable from i[whatever], and since it's 1920x1080 (at 9Mbps bitrate or so] the vast majority of people with HDTVs, who stretch old 4:3 movies to fit their screens, think they're getting a bargain at $5 per movie and subscribe.
So the HD-buying public WILL accept a pay-per-view system after rejecting DIVX and severe viewing restrictions with HD discs? I don’t think so.

#27 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 10:11 AM

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You will have no success on boycotting due to this studio requirement, unless your aim is to kill HD disks in general.
That’s not really the aim, but it is what boycotters would be willing to have happen if the studios don’t do it right. I don’t think your itunes scenario would work. The studios would want to make it a pay-per-view system, and the public won’t buy it. The studios can’t just dictate a distribution method. THEY don’t decide what succeeds; consumers do.

#28 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 10:25 AM

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This is the report of "The Digital Spy", I guess I don't consider that as official as you do. I never claimed we shouldn't take action now, just that we not act like spoiled little children, and address them with some level of respect.
I don’t foresee any mission statement or communication to the studios sounding like it was written by children. I expect it to be a well written, articulate expression of dissatisfaction. Why would you assume otherwise, and if you’re not opposed to action, why wouldn’t you join in something that’s as I described?

#29 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 12 2005 - 11:36 AM

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they wont let it output in full-rez over an old under-performing outdated analog cable?
Sounds like you never saw demos such as that at the Faroudja display at CES a few years ago, where they displayed 1080p over “old, outdated analog cable" on a Sony G90 (one of those displays you think is “old”). I’ve never seen a better picture ANYWHERE outside of a movie theater, and yes, that includes the latest displays using your precious digital cable.

#30 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 02:59 AM

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Faroudja's NRS+ falls well short of Teranex's HDX processing performance.
Irrelevant. I’ve also seen video using a Teranex processor, and it wasn’t connected to the display using HDMI. It was connected using analog RGBHV cables, which are easily cable of carrying signals in the hundreds of megahertz (in other words, more than capable of transmitting 1080p at 60 hz, which requires less than 125 million pixels per second).

Quote:
However, component cable is indeed old (over 50 years now), as is CRT technology (will turn 75 next year). In fact, Sony got out of the CRT front projection business quite a while ago - as have almost every company that used to make CRT front projectors.
Again, completely irrelevant. What counts is how the technology performs, not how old it is. Any knowledgeable person knows that the “age” of CRT OR its performance is not the reason why most front projection manufacturers moved away from it. Read the CRT vs. digital forums at AV Science, and you will see lots of posts talking about the “convenience” of the “bulb” projectors, their small size, etc. (the real reason for the marketing push for digital in the presentation market). They do NOT claim absolute superiority in picture quality, and the CRT people will give you a hell of an argument if you attempt to do so.The fact is that that there are VERY few “digital displays with HDMI connectors” capable of 1080p (most of them, in fact, are only capable of 1280 resolution at best). The resolution of high end CRT front projectors actually owned by people is better than the native resolution of most digital displays, HDMI or no HDMI.

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In addition, HDMI includes high performance audio transmission capabilities with sample rates between 32 and 192 kHz at up to 8 channels.
So what? You think HDMI is the only way to achieve such audio performance?

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there are several new digital display technologies that are on track to surpass even the mighty 9" EM focus CRT guns for overall PQ!
Yeah, people have been saying that for years. It's always "next year or the year after that". Posted Image

#31 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 03:53 AM

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Then why did you bring it up in the first place???
It was you who raised the issue of CRT being "old". That's the irrelevant point.

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How about offering some actual technical insight that might support your disdain for HDMI and that can explain how component performs as well as HDMI when transmitting a 1080p signal from a digital source.
Nils, I don't have "disdain" for HDMI. What I do dislike is the attitude I see in your posts that people who don't have it (your constant reference to "old technology") can't get superb performance from HD discs. That is simply not true. I've SEEN HD video using analog cables on the megabuck front projectors and processors, and you have no basis for saying that people wouldn't be THRILLED with such a picture. Why do you keep insisting that they wouldn't be, or shouldn't be?

#32 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 04:40 AM

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On this I would never agree on. Kill HiDef DVD because they wont let it output in full-rez over an old under-performing outdated analog cable________________________________________
Doesn't mean component cable is worthless, just that HDMI outperforms it.
Your implication was that there’s no reason for people to be upset about the HDMI mandate, because they couldn’t get satisfactory performance from analog cable anyway. That’s wrong, and that’s what I took offense to.

Quote:
point out where I have "kept insisting" that people wouldn't be thrilled with HD over analog
If you’re saying that they WOULD be thrilled with HD over analog, then it makes sense for them to be up in arms about not being able to experience it with their current sets.

#33 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 06:28 AM

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With the exception of a couple rogue models, they do not - so why not then boycott all DVD players and associated products until they allow 720p/1080i/1125i output via component for their upscaling players?
But the point is that you CAN do so if you wish (you left out scaling HTPC players which are very commonly available), and nobody is restricting you from being able to do so, nor are they threatening to kill your ability to use players/discs if you do so. HUGE difference.

#34 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 07:13 AM

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both standard DVD and HD DVD technically can output a 720p/1080i/1125i signal via component - but they don't.
Not true. No one prevents you from buying a scaling DVD player. They're not difficult to buy. The same is not true of HD DVD. You will not be ALLOWED to buy an HD player that allows HD analog output, even though it's perfectly feasible technically (as are scaling DVD players).

#35 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 08:36 AM

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The DVD format never promised anything other than what it delivers. Even if upscaling is possible, no one promised anything more, then took it away 5 years later before it could be realised. HD has done exactly that.
Yes, Nil’s analogy is flawed. It would be like complaining at some future point about how a player that upscales HD to, say, 4000 x 2000 has limited availability and utility. 4000 x 2000 Was never in the spec to begin with.

#36 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 13 2005 - 10:32 AM

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Ron
I'm confused by the double standard I'm hearing here and confused by the points you are promoting.
You are saying that we have to Boycott both formats because we don't want to buy 2 different machines to get all the releases from the studios and then later you point out how this forum and the Internet helped defeat DIVX which for the 1st year and a half had the studios divided on releases. What we did then was correct we boycotted the greedy and inferior format and did it by going without those studio titles for awhile and then those studios came around when DIVX lost and we got all the titles.
So why did we not Boycott DVD and DIVX back then until a unified format came out with all the studios behind it?
The situations are not really the same, and Ron isn’t really promoting a double standard. In the case of DVD vs. DIVX, EVERYONE knew and agreed on which was the “bad” guy and which was the “good” guy. We all wanted DIVX to fail and DVD to succeed, because we liked DVD just as it was. However, it’s not certain at this point that Blu-Ray won’t adopt the same paranoid restrictions and lack of full-res component output that HD-DVD has. Therefore, there would be nothing to distinguish between the two on that basis. There simply isn’t universal consensus on which is the “good” format (the strong feelings of Blu-Ray supporters notwithstanding). If, however (as I and others have suggested), Blu-Ray doesn’t adopt these measures, that would be a reason to support them and boycott HD-DVD.

#37 of 1684 Robert Crawford

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Posted July 10 2005 - 09:49 AM

I want that, and people in this forum should help strive for that.

Only if it makes economical sense to do so. If acceptance of the HD format doesn't take off then the entertainment industry along with hardware providers only have themselves to blame for that unfortunate situation.








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#38 of 1684 Robert Crawford

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Posted July 10 2005 - 02:16 PM

Well, how about buying a TV that has a HDMI input?
If a TV doesn't have one these days, it's either a few years old, cheap, or both.

So everybody with a television that's a few years old should buy another one just so they can watch this new software format? If so then this new software format is going to fail or become nothing more than a niche market for the next 10 years or so.





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#39 of 1684 Robert Crawford

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Posted July 11 2005 - 11:40 AM

While I am in complete support of those that wish any new HD format to be backward compatible with component cable, I believe it is the studios, and not the manufacturers who are putting pressure on both groups to not allow full HD resolution to be transmitted through component in order to prevent it from being easily pirated.

I would think most of us are smart enough to realized that the studios have issues about pirating and are dictating certain specification demands on the manufacturers.








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#40 of 1684 Robert Crawford

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Posted July 12 2005 - 10:45 AM

-- Hollywood will not compromise on HDCP. No matter how much you beg, or how much the electronics firms beg. It ain't gonna happen. They will sit back and let their films rot rather than give 10 million early adopters analog and (in their mind) let pirates run rampant, diving in and out of the "analog hole". You will have no success on boycotting due to this studio requirement, unless your aim is to kill HD disks in general.

I agree with your assertion about the studios willingness not to compromise on that issue. Furthermore, I hope Ron, Bill Hunt and others involved in addressing that scenario are willing to kill the HD format all together because it possibly will come down to that. Personally, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.








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