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It's Official: HD DVD and Blu-ray Can Limit High Resolution To HDMI Only


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1683 replies to this topic

#1 of 1684 Aaron Silverman

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Posted July 11 2005 - 04:51 AM

Personally, I see one of two things happening:

1) Blu-Ray takes off thanks to the PS3, and HD-DVD does the DiVX shuffle. (People should not underestimate the impact of the millions of Blu-Ray players labeled "PS3" that will be in homes very quickly.)

2) Consumers don't care enough about the increase in quality from SD-DVD to buy into either of the new formats, which go the niche route of SACD/ DVD-A. (Which might subsequently be followed by my other prediction, but that would leave Blu-Ray in the position of LaserDisc, not SD-DVD.)
"How wonderful it will be to have a leader unburdened by the twin horrors of knowledge and experience." -- Mr. Wick

#2 of 1684 Aaron Silverman

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Posted July 11 2005 - 10:35 AM

Those of you who are worried about a compromise involving a "unified" format that would water down Blu-Ray's technological advantage should bear in mind that Blu-Ray is an existing format. You can buy it today in Japan. I don't see them changing that technology at this point.

HD-DVD, on the other hand, is still only on the drawing board.
"How wonderful it will be to have a leader unburdened by the twin horrors of knowledge and experience." -- Mr. Wick

#3 of 1684 Everett Stallings

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Posted July 11 2005 - 09:36 AM

I have an $8000.00 Philips plasma with HDMI but does not have the protection circuit,so the HDMI input is useless! I had to return an upconvert DVD player because of this.
So count me in for a boycott.

Former projectionist @ all downtown theatres in Balto. City.Which are all closed. frown.gif

#4 of 1684 GlennH

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Posted July 11 2005 - 04:48 PM

My theory: It's Warner Brothers fault.

Yes, the studio that so many of us (including me) love for their overall great work with the DVD format.

I think the electronics companies know that a lot of their better customers won't be happy with HD resolutions being passed by HDMI (HDCP-compliant) digital connections only. They would probably love to give us the same level of HD resolution via component that we already have from cable/satellite.

But the movie studios don't want to play that game. They don't even want to allow the upconverting SD-DVD players to pass the upconverted signal over analog component. That's not even true HD - talk about paranoia.

So if HD DVD announces it will only be true HD via HDMI, it's not Toshiba, it's the big studio behind HD DVD -- Warner.

This leaves Sony and partners in a great position to outright win this format war. Sony owns both the consumer electronics company and the studio. If they could somehow convince the movie folks to allow for full HD resolution via component it would be all over. They already appear to have the technically better product in Blu-ray. Giving us this should seal the deal.

Unfortunately, I don't see them doing it. I think they'll do exactly the same as HD DVD is doing. They all probably figure that they can just dig their heels in and kill analog high resolution for good if they weather this storm.

#5 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 10 2005 - 11:02 AM

As a very early adopter of DVD (bought a player the day they were available), and an owner of a Toshiba HD-ready set, I have no interest in jumping in early on any HD format, until there is a single standard that will work on my set.

While it may be a huge success, even DVD isn't without its detractors. Just last night I was visiting neighbors with a standard 4:3 set who were very disappointed by the fact that all of their DVDs were breaking up due to poor handling and storage, where their ten + year old VHS tapes still played flawlessly. There wasn't much to argue about.

Before I invest in yet another format, there need to be some serious problems with the DVD format addressed: first, the durability of the signal, especially in an average household where discs will not be treated with kid gloves. Second is rot, to which many of my collection are falling prey. Third is compatability with the equipment I have.

There needs to be ONE format, and one format only, and it needs to be durable (unlike DVD), and backwards compatable (unless we want to launch a class action suit against all the manufacturers who promised HD compatability on our multithousand dollar sets).

I'm boycotting already, and it would be great to send a clear and unified message to the manufacturers that their squabbling is going to cost their companies profits. It also wouldn't hurt to invoke a bit of fear in the shareholders of those companies over the potential disater they are facing.

No HD until it is done right!

#6 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 11 2005 - 04:29 AM

Quote:
How many people that buy DVD's don't come here or on any other message boards... I suspect the number is far greater.

That may be, but those people aren't the ones who will be racing out the door to buy $5000 worth of new theater equipment so they can watch the first HD content.

My Toshiba is supposed to be able to handle 1080i through component. If this new HD format will not work on it, then I think a letter to Toshiba explaining why I will not be buying any more equipment from them is in order. After paying through the nose for a supposedly HD ready set, which now won't play HD, I will not be doing it again.

#7 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 12 2005 - 11:31 AM

Quote:
you can still use your HDTV for broadcast, digital cable, or satellite.

Sure, which means I won't be buying new players or any new software. I can feel the savings already!

Come to think of it, after years of collecting DVDs that get watched once and filed, I would be all for a pay per view system that was flexible and low cost. I'm tired of forking out $30 for a disc that will just rot on my shelf before I have a chance to watch it again. Those few titles I really need a copy of I can buy, the rest, rent.

#8 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 13 2005 - 05:27 AM

Quote:
Clearly DVI/HDMI is a superior carrier for the signal than component cables. That really isn't in dispute. Can a component cable carry a 1080i signal? It does right now in my HT.

All other issues aside, this is the primary one from the point of view of those of us who bought HD sets as early adopters. Is the quality less over component? Probably, but since I bought an HD ready set, it should display HD, otherwise I should be entitled to a substantial rebate.

I find it hard to see where all this support for Blu-Ray comes from, given that we have not seen a commercially released disc and no one really knows what is going to be implemented. Specs alone don't make a great format, as we have witnessed with thousands of crappy DVD releases from inferior sources. Show me that this product is going to not only look great, but also hold up.

If they aren't using a cartridge, the format is doomed. I have lost dozens of discs from simply sitting on a shelf due to manufacturing problems. I know many people hate DVD for being so susceptable to problems if the are scratched or handled incorrectly. With higher data densities, any HD disc is going to be more prone to failure or nasty artifacts in a normal usage environment.

Bottom line is that if there is not support for component, I will not be buying into the format. Period. I will also not be supporting the format if it is not unified, just like I'm not buying any hi res audio.

#9 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 13 2005 - 06:34 AM

AFAIK upscaling was never part of the DVD spec, nor were players sold stating they would upscale and were then limited later.

If the HDMI only spec sticks, I can see myself saving a lot of money on home theatre products in the future. No need for a new player or new software. No point in buying SD versions either, as they are obsolete. Perhaps I can finally just enjoy what I have and forget about new purchases altogether!

#10 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 13 2005 - 08:26 AM

Quote:
720p/1080i over component was never part of either Blu-ray or HD DVD specs either. So what's your point?
My point is that I was sold a very expensive HD ready TV that relies on component connections. If it won't allow for HD content due to changes to HDMI, then I was hoodwinked. Lesson learned, no more early adopter for me. The industry can live without my money, or that of the hundreds of people who bought into the current format as a result of my influence and enthusiasm.

The DVD format never promised anything other than what it delivers. Even if upscaling is possible, no one promised anything more, then took it away 5 years later before it could be realised. HD has done exactly that.

If neither HD format offers something I can use on my supposedly HD ready set, then I will boycott both formats. SD purchases (as they already are) will be limited to very few select titles. Unlike the past 8 years, the home video industry will be seeing very little of my cash in the forseeable future.

#11 of 1684 Jeff Ulmer

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Posted July 13 2005 - 11:39 AM

Quote:
What changes to HDMI were those? Hoodwinked? Why? Because you took a salesman's word that despite any future formats your TV would always be able to receive the maximum resolution over component?

When HD ready sets first became available, the ONLY option for HD content came by way of the component inputs, which will handle up to 1080i. Toshiba (the manufacturer of my TV) has now changed to HDMI, which makes my set unusable for HD content. I did my own research, thank you very much, as to what the TV was capable of. Toshiba has now recanted, and the set won't do HD as it was advertised.

As others have said, the entire HDMI-only is silly, since the whole HDCP system is futile. Pirates aren't going to be jacking the component signal, they will simply replicate the whole disc as they have been with SD discs.

Also, equating this scenario with the DVD/DIVX war is another bad analogy. DVD was an established format. DIVX was an add-on. If the analogy were to be closer, we would have a HD format released, then 6 months later have an incompatable format replace it.

#12 of 1684 Mark Zimmer

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Posted July 13 2005 - 03:16 AM

I'm in for a boycott of any DVD format that is incompatible with component.

We as early adopters and spreaders of bad-word-of-mouth took down the original DIVX. The power of the Internet has grown exponentially since then, so the much-more-expensive HD-DVD and new HDTV sets are even more vulnerable to organized angry consumer backlash. If they can't sell them to us, they're going down. This kind of format DESPERATELY needs early adopters who will show their equipment off to their late-adopter friends. Without that link in the chain, the whole thing falls apart.

I have HDTV service, and the quality is not so different from a well-mastered DVD that I'm all that enthused about HD-DVD anyway. We're not talking about the quantum leap between VHS and DVD, but a much smaller difference, which will most likely be cancelled out by the studios slapping on edge enhancement (I'm looking at you, Sony) and making the experience uglier than it needs to be.

#13 of 1684 Neil Joseph

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Posted July 11 2005 - 03:51 AM

Quote:
Attention

I think something big is going to start right here.

I just got off the phone with Bill Hunt of
The Digital Bits

The HD format wars have been discussed in great
detail on The Digital Bits website. Bill Hunt has
been a huge advocate in trying to unify both formats.

I told Bill what was happening here on Home Theater
Forum and he became very excited about what he heard.

The plan is simple....

We are going to seek to bring as many DVD and
Home Theater websites together as we can to promote
a message to consumers that NOBODY should be buying
into the new HD formats until they are unified.

We will draw up a statement that gives an overview
of exactly how this format war will negatively
impact the industry and the consumer. We will then
tout the fact that the only way to make a positive
change towards a unified format is for consumers not
to support either HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc formats.

Once we begin to bring more websites on board we
will begin spreading the word. We plan to alert our
media contacts about our cause, and it is our hope
that in the next coming months "the voice of the
Internet" will be making headlines.

It's very important that our members support this
cause. We are confident that by abstaining to
support either format, both camps will be forced
to rethink their strategy. We are the early adopters
that the manufacturers and studios are banking on
to fuel sales and word-of-mouth. We plan to disappoint.

The DVD format grew and prospered out of forums
and websites like HTF and THE DIGITAL BITS. We
will not allow the same to happen to the upcoming
dueling HD formats.

More news to come....
I was there when the battles were ongoing in today's dvd format (divx) etc and believe that we will be heard if we are unified. Bring it on!!
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#14 of 1684 Neil Joseph

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Posted July 11 2005 - 07:30 AM

Ron, you have e-mail.
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#15 of 1684 Paul Anthony

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Posted July 11 2005 - 04:11 AM

I will not be upgrading to HD-DVD. Besides, I have over 2000 DVDs, and I'm perfectly happy with the current format.

Until something better comes along, HD-DVD is not one of them.

#16 of 1684 Reed Grele

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Posted July 11 2005 - 05:19 PM

No unified Hi Def DVD format. No component supported 1080i output. NO SALE HERE.

#17 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 10 2005 - 08:07 AM

Has Blu-Ray officially said they will be HDMI only? If not, this would be a huge opportunity for them to gain a competitive advantage.

#18 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 10 2005 - 02:05 PM

Quote:
I have never considered component cables to be HD
Based on what, exactly? I've watched a great deal of 1080i via analog connections (RGBHV), and anyone who says such a connection "is not HD" has obviously never seen it.

#19 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 11 2005 - 03:24 AM

Quote:
I don't have high definition set yet
That explains a lot.

#20 of 1684 RobertR

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Posted July 11 2005 - 02:30 PM

Quote:
Here's my proposal:

Boycott HD-DVD now, with the clear understanding that the minute Blu-Ray announces for HDMI-HDCP only it will get the exact same treatment. Remember, unlike the DVD Forum, the BluRay group have not yet publicly stated their commitment that High Definition shall not be output without HDCP -- so give them a chance not to say it.

I think that's an excellent idea. It accomplishes the goal of expressing our displeasure, puts market pressure on Sony not to do the same, and clearly delineates the potential for a "good guy" and a "bad guy" in the format war.


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