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*** Official STAR WARS Saga (episodes I to VI) Discussion Thread: Part 4


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#41 of 2841 OFFLINE   George See

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Posted May 20 2005 - 04:42 AM

The only thing that really seems like a somewhat major plot hole right now is obi-wan saying "that boy was our last hope" when he obviously knew about Leia.

#42 of 2841 OFFLINE   Matt Stone

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Posted May 20 2005 - 04:48 AM

Though it's possible that he assumed Luke was stronger in the force, or that Luke had already received moderate training and Leia hasn't.

There's also the fact that the very "other" Yoda speaks of is one of the people Luke is running off to save. As much as I love the moment, I almost wish "There is another" was left out of the film. It ends up being used as nothing more than a teaser and brings forth some continuity problems.
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#43 of 2841 OFFLINE   FredK

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Posted May 20 2005 - 04:56 AM

^ at least it's easy to cut. or we just have to reinterpret it that Yoda foresaw that Vader could do what actually happened in ROTJ

#44 of 2841 OFFLINE   Matt Stone

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Posted May 20 2005 - 04:57 AM

Yah, but they needed Luke to bring about Anakin's change anyway, so the "...only hope" line is still valid.
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#45 of 2841 OFFLINE   George See

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Posted May 20 2005 - 05:11 AM

Quote:
Yah, but they needed Luke to bring about Anakin's change anyway, so the "...only hope" line is still valid.


So by that logic then Yoda was wrong when he said "no there is another" ? If only luke could bring about the change in Anakin then yoda was wrong. Of course it wouldn't be the first time Yoda made a mistake.

Which might actually make sense, because I bet leia would have had too much of a chip on her shoulder to pull off changing anakin back. Vader never tortured luke or blew up his homeworld.

#46 of 2841 OFFLINE   Bobby*K

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Posted May 20 2005 - 05:20 AM

I have completely enjoyed reading these interpretations. The "...last hope" line is obviously referring to Leia, I think we can believe that. ALTHOUGH you absolutely can make an argument that it was referring to Yoda "knowing" what Vadar was going to do. In fact, that is a pretty cool interpretation, but it is a typical forshadowing line for an upcoming surprising element of the movie.

I do have a question. The Star Wars Novels out there, are they there to fill in the blanks of questions from the movies? Or are they simply there as Star Wars propaganda, more ways to capitolize on the name? I've never read them because I didn't think that they correlated with the movies themselves. Can someone fill me in on their existence? And how Lucas was involved with them? Thanks.

#47 of 2841 OFFLINE   Michael TLV

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Posted May 20 2005 - 05:36 AM

Greetings

I only know that the Clone Wars cartoons are canon ...

Regards
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#48 of 2841 OFFLINE   FredK

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Posted May 20 2005 - 06:23 AM

Quote:
Which might actually make sense, because I bet leia would have had too much of a chip on her shoulder to pull off changing anakin back. Vader never tortured luke or blew up his homeworld.

I never thought of it this way, but that's funny as hell! Posted Image

One of the benefits of watching these movies 100's of times is being able to enjoy stuff like that which isn't meant to be anything.

#49 of 2841 OFFLINE   Matt Stone

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Posted May 20 2005 - 07:23 AM

I already posted this in the ROTS thread, but I thought I'd put it here too.

http://www.firesidec....n=Custom&ID=38

I'm pretty pumped. Can't wait until they arrive.
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#50 of 2841 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted May 20 2005 - 07:37 AM

Yeah, I liked Casey's interpretation from way back on why Obi-Wan said Luke was their last hope. (And we've known since ROTJ that OB1 always knew about Leia.)

Casey said that OB1 knew Leia was too much of a bitch to train her as a Jedi. She'd have become Sith for sure.

Maybe a few years of getting laid by Han would make it safe, but at the time OB1 knew her she was too much of a risk. Perhaps Yoda foresaw that a rogue smuggler would put her in her place.Posted Image

Yoda still contradicts himeslf thanks to the quick-fix of Leia being Luke's sister thing though. He says there's another hope, but at the same time he wants Luke to let her be killed. Then again, he only brings up the "another" thing AFTER Luke makes his choice, so I guess Lucas has grounds to defend that.

The Anakin as "another" interpretation works ok too though since it's OB1 encouraging Luke to destroy Vader. Yoda doesn't really tell Luke to kill him in ROTJ. So, it's possible OB1 and Yoda have different opinions on Vader. Then again OB1 says "the other he spoke of is your twin sister" speech in Jedi (though this time after the "another Sky-wal-ker" bit. I would take that as Lucas' implication that the other Skywalker and another hope are one and the same, Luke's sister.

At the time of filming ESB, I feel confident the plan wasn't to have Vader destroy the Emperor since he wasn't to be taken out of the equation until Ep. 9 I believe. So, the sister was the intention at the time, and I'd wager we're supposed to think Yoda and OB1 both consider Vader is lost for good. Only Luke believes in his father's goodness (perhaps inherited from his mother), and it's only at the end of ROTJ that it's revealed the prophecy was, in fact, correct.
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#51 of 2841 OFFLINE   Mike Milillo

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:03 AM

Wow, those are some deep thoughts.

I have a few questions.....

I don't need spoiler tags here, right?











The sith lord that Sidious spoke about to Anakin, Did he create Anakin by controlling Midiclorians? Or was this something sidious make up to turn anakin to the dark side?

Also, at what point to you guys think Sidieous learned about Anakin being special? Was it at the end of phantom menace, or during Clones? Dooku has been expendable the whole time, just a means to an end.

I was expecting to maybe see Bobafett.

At the end when they are looking at the death star under construction, I found it a bit odd. The death star made it's first appearance in a New Hope, isn't it 20 years later? The second death star was almost finished being built between the end a New Hope and the beginning of return of the jedi. How much time elapsed from the start to finish of the original three?

#52 of 2841 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:04 AM

I saw Ep. 3 opening day and will see it again Saturday. (but it feels like a week away!)

I'm not ready to rank it yet (but it's definitely up there), but for now I'd give it 4.5/5 stars.

It's disappointing that some things got cut to keep the runtime down, but I know Lucas wants to keep things close to 2 hours. It's sad that he's right how short people's attention spans are. How the LOTR films succeeded I don't know. People I know wouldn't see them theatrically because they were so long.

I loved how Shakespearean it was. Some things felt a bit accelerated, but if you think of what the other films tell us about the seductive nature of the dark side, it still works I suppose. And there are some good lines in the movie that really explain what happened. "Blinded by love" and all.

And what Palpy does to seal the deal makes sense and gives the new "How is that possible?" line in ESB some kick.
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#53 of 2841 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:11 AM

Mike, the easy answer to the DS question is that the construction of the 2nd Death Star could have begun long before the original was destroyed. That might throw a wrench into some EU stuff, but Lucas has no problem with that.

Guess Lucas thought better of a 13-year-old Boba Fett.

Palpy obviously had his eye on Anakin since the end of TPM and surely found out about his immaculate conception somehow.

I thought of the Sith lord creating Anakin thing, but don't know for sure. Pretty sure I know who did in that Sith lord though.
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#54 of 2841 OFFLINE   Bobby*K

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:22 AM

Quote:
And there are some good lines in the movie that really explain what happened. "Blinded by love" and all.


I completely agree. I have heard a few people discussing how bad the dialogue is and use this scene as an example. I had to disagree because it really does a nice job of hinting at things to come. I appreciated the dialogue, I felt it was consistent throughout.

#55 of 2841 OFFLINE   Matt Stone

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:30 AM

Quote:
I thought of the Sith lord creating Anakin thing, but don't know for sure. Pretty sure I know who did in that Sith lord though.


And if Palpy knew everything Darth Plagous(sp) knew, it's certainly possible that he (Palpy) created Anakin. Interesting thought.
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#56 of 2841 OFFLINE   Matt Stone

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:32 AM

Quote:
I appreciated the dialogue, I felt it was consistent throughout.


Me too. In fact, I can't think of any direct problems with the dialog. The only examples would be Palpy's "Noooo!" and, ironically, Vader's "Noooo!" Both just sounded really weird.
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#57 of 2841 OFFLINE   Kevin Grey

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Posted May 20 2005 - 08:50 AM

I do have a question. The Star Wars Novels out there, are they there to fill in the blanks of questions from the movies? Or are they simply there as Star Wars propaganda, more ways to capitolize on the name? I've never read them because I didn't think that they correlated with the movies themselves. Can someone fill me in on their existence? And how Lucas was involved with them? Thanks.


Propaganda mostly, but there are exceptions.

Specifically, everything in the ROTS novel can likely be taken as canon. Lucas personally selected and worked with the author, answered any questions he had, and read and approved the final manuscript. Its safe to say that any background in that novel has full Lucas approval.

A lot of the same goes for Labyrinth of Evil, the ROTS prequel novel. The author of that one also had access to Lucas for questions and it is my understanding that Lucas read and approved the final manuscript there too. Consequently many things explained in it that aren't referenced in the film, like Sifo-Dyas' identity, can also be accepted as canon.

Some of the background for the Old Republic comics on the Sith have some basis in canon since the authors were able to get some questions answered, but not nearly as much as the two most recent novels.

As far as the rest goes Lucas has had minimal involvement, only approving broad plot outlines and the fate of certain characters and mandating certain restrictions like no use of Sith post Jedi and a few other things.

#58 of 2841 OFFLINE   Grant H

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Posted May 20 2005 - 09:01 AM

Somebody in the review thread commented on Grievous' bike being so cool?

Did anyone else think right away that it was Mr. Garrison's "It" from South Park? I sure did, and when I saw it in use I wondered if Trey Parker and Matt Stone might sue.Posted Image

Did anyone else notice the Federation droids sounded quite different in this one? Also, the Nemoidians seemed to have no accents and better lip-sync. I wonder if we'll see changes on future Ep. I and II DVD's to match. I thought Ep. III did some nice improvements.

The dialogue was classic Star Wars, like the OT. The performances were all up to par this time and that make a big difference, especially Portman I thought showed a tremendous improvement. Like she actually wanted to be there. I was amazed how great Lucas' one-liners were this time around. Makes me wonder if he sat down with Harrison Ford or something. Just about all the humor in the film was great! I was surprised how much I laughed in what was otherwise a dark film. Welcome, not excessive comic relief it was. R2D2 rocked!!

I don't know that I've ever gotten so emotional during a film because of how sheerly wonderful it was. Especially, speaking of the film's opening half hour or so. I was tearing up because everything was so great. It was like "I have everything I ever wanted all here!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" That kind of feeling. There probably is too much going on at times for a lot of folks. I guess I can thank being raised on video games for letting me take it all in just fine and following what's important all while taking in the surroundings. I think Podracer in particular made me adept at fast action. When it comes to Lucas being "busy" I usually find myself more distracted in subsequent viewings; since I already know what's going on I check out all the atmostphere. I love it because I can watch it over and over and see things I never saw before. Despite disappointment with TPM that kind of thing allowed me to really enjoy viewings on my HDTV.

I don't think I'd wish Ep. III on the SW uninitiated. It would be like throwing a newborn into a swimming pool. I really feel this film is for Lucas and the Star Wars fans. I don't know how general audiences will react. There are lots of things they could pick on, but it would be mostly because they don't understand the styles of the SW films or the SW universe George Lucas created. I would hope that all the buzz would get the newbies to run out and rent the other 5 films, and THEN see ROTS. I would of course recommend they view IV-VI first. They should have plenty of time to do that while the fans keep buying early tickets.
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#59 of 2841 OFFLINE   Adam_WM

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Posted May 20 2005 - 03:19 PM

About 20 years between Ep 3 and Ep 4? Man, Obi-Wan, Uncle Owen, and Aunt Beru get REEEEEEALLLY old lookin'. Posted Image
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#60 of 2841 OFFLINE   Casey Trowbridg

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Posted May 20 2005 - 04:08 PM

Yeah I am a big champion of the Leia is a superbitch theory. Basically the Leia that I see in ANH would fall to the darkside so fast it'd make your head spin.

Just imagine the Emperor laying out his trap and explaining it not to Luke but to Leia from ANH...once he told her that her friends were lost I think she'd slap the wrinkles clean off of his face.

Where this becomes a problem is what if Luke had parished at Cloud City, leaving Leia as the last hope...who the hell is going to train her...I mean she's really not connected to Obi-wan in ANH so I don't know that he would've been able to communicate to her through the force. But all of this doesn't matter because the movies didn't play out that way.

Oh, and props to the Obi-Wan and Yoda being roommates idea now that's a funny concept.


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