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*** Official STAR WARS: EPISODE III - REVENGE OF THE SITH Discussion Thread


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#41 of 3062 Dave Mack

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Posted May 18 2005 - 11:33 PM

Well, I'm off for my first viewing, 11am. Am beat, didn't sleep good, (but that could also be my impending move weighing on my mind...)
Wish me luck!!!!

I REALLY disliked ep. 1. Thought II was better, but just ok, so I'm just hoping I think it's good.

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#42 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 12:27 AM

Quote:
Anakin's turn should've started sooner. By saving that entire arc for essentially one scene, he's ruined the prequel trilogy.


Anakin's turn really starts on Tatooine in AOTC. That's where he lets his hatred get the best of him.

Remember Yoda's dialogue? "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny; consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

Anakin made his choice in Clones. He embraced his hatred and turned his back on the Jedi code by slaughtering innocents. This continued in his choice to marry Padme, then to kill Dooku, then to help Palpatine, etc. His actions against Mace were just the final consummation.

The more I think about this film, the more I love it. Tough to review right now, but I can't wait to see it again.

The thing that I found most striking was the dialogue and acting. Both were MUCH improved over TPM and ROTS.

Strangely, I liked the quiet moments the best in ROTS, and this is why I think it's stature will only improve with time.

#43 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 12:34 AM

Re: the Vader transformation scene.

Maybe it was just from hearing all the criticisms of this scene, but I actually found nothing wrong with it, and actually thought they handled it very well.

Most impressive thing? Vader's speech sounds EXACTLY like it did in the OT. No small feat, given that JEJ has aged over 20 years since he last did the dialogue, and the different mixing equipment they are undoubtedly using.

Re: the acting/dialogue.

I'm actually really surprised at the criticism here. Where there some moments where the performances could have been better? Sure. But there was nothing here on the level of "Yippee" or the fireplace scene in AOTC. I really bought all the performances, especially from Natalie and Hayden.

Re: the action scenes.

I'm surprised more of the criticism isn't focused here instead. Outside of the first 20 minutes, ROTS doesn't reach the action intensity of the other five films, in my opinion. It's the interaction between the characters that sold ROTS to me, and it's another reason why I'm betting that ROTS will age as well as ESB did.

#44 of 3062 KyleC

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:05 AM

Random Thoughts:
-Ewan was gold. He really sounded/looked like a young Alec Guiness.

-The humor in some spots is so forced it's almost a parody of itself. Some of the James Bond like one-liners made me cringe.

-The lightsaber fights were just awesome.

-Grevious was much more of a badass in the cartoon, but I did like how he was still choking from Mace's force squeeze from the cartoon.

-The biggest thing for me... Why did Padme die? In ROTJ, Leia gave specific details of her mother to Luke that could only have come from when she was older and not a newborn. Can George keep his own story straight?

-The Vader/Frankenstein scene was a complete eye roller.

-The last 1/2 hr felt extremely rushed.

-The transformation of Palpatine into the disfigured Emperor was somewhat odd. I always thought he transformed because he was holding back his true power. When the Jedi came to arrest him, I would have liked him to transform there as he unleashed all his power. The darkside is supposed to consume him, and that's at least what i got out of the OT.

-Small touches that link the trilogies. I like how Obi picked up Anakin's saber after their duel (the one he gives to Luke). The droids memory wipe.

Don't get me wrong, this was a good movie. I need a second viewing as my theater screwed up the sound and it was only in 2.1.

#45 of 3062 Jerome Grate

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:11 AM

Haven't seen the movie yet, (I'm going to the Zeigfield NYC on Saturday), but I'm concerned about the DVD release. All I hear about the movie is the fact that it's PG-13 and not for small children. I hope this won't sway Lucas and force him to modify the DVD release from all the flackPosted Image
Listen Up People.., Rack Em and Pack Em.., We're Phantoms in 15.

#46 of 3062 Tim Glover

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:14 AM

Gave my initial review in that thread. Do need more time to absorb it all. I've actually had little sleep all week too....

Some early thoughts:

Cons:
1. Opening battle stuff was kind of fun, but for some reason, and perhaps due to high anticipation awaiting the next moment to arrive-it worked less for me than I hoped.

2. Grievous was ok. Not a real memorable foe though. But I realize he's just a pawn. No biggie there.

3. Really did want more from the Padme death. I knew it was coming but wanted a little more of a send-off so to speak. During the funeral procession, wanted some better music too. I just wanted it to be a knockout emotional punch and it was effective but could have been a tad richer.

4. Anakin with Clones into the Temple. Such a "legend" moment there and that silly AOTC music?! WTF?! Letdown there. Again, for me , another missed opportunity.

5. Mace-Palpy-Anakin. I understand what folks are saying about the final turn bit. True, this was just the final step. No need for a huge thing. But...could've benefitted much more if Anakin could have had some more dialogue after the Mace stuff. Something that adds..."look what I've done...One of the Jedi Master's?!...There can be no going back for me now..." Just a little more.

6. Yoda-Palpy did end rather abruptly. Not a biggie there though.

7. The explanation on Padme's will to live could have been left unsaid for sure. We can figure it out ourselves. Not jarring but forced a bit.

7. Wanted more for Luke/Obi Wan...on Tatooine. I understand the ending musical bit and I love that. Just a bit more? I don't know. Maybe a bit longer...not forcing the emotions but just letting us soak in the final moments.

Some of the negatives are starting to sound the same as I write. Nutshell-some of the more powerful scenes needed that final touch to knock them out.

The other thing I will also confess and I stated it earlier. When I see a SW film the first time, I tend to anticipate the next move kind of...instead of relaxing and enjoying it now. I have a history of that even for other films that are important to me. No doubt, some of my issues will subside on another "more normal" viewing.

The Good:

1. Ewan-Obi Wan. Almost always great and effective. Top notch.

2. Portman surprised me. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay effective this time. She had less, but what she had was terrific. Wasn't expecting it.

3. Hayden was better than ever most of the time. Not always, but mostly.

(the acting was better-even Samuel Jackson was better than I thought he would be)

4. Yoda was given some great moments, not just his power, but his rich dialogue and how it helped make the story better. Great stuff there.

5. Did enjoy Palpy more than the Emp. Ian nailed it though and was really captivating as the chancellor. Especially when Anakin has his saber at his neck. Wow.

6. R2 was fun. That brought the house down.

7. Yoda on the Wookie...also got ovation.

8. LOVED the editing back and forth with Yoda-Palpy OBW-Anakin. Some of the best stuff in the whole SAGA there.

9. Good decision regarding the younglings. Perfect touch.

10. Smitts was really good. Wanted more of him though.

11. LOVED Padme's force? sensing with Anakin. Rich, and understated in a perfect way. GL was on target there for sure.

I'll have more later I'm sure.

Need to see it again for clearer thoughts. These are just my initial-knee jerk comments.

:b

#47 of 3062 Matthew_Def

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:14 AM

Having not seen the film, this thread is terribly confusing. Some people say the turn was handled well, and others say poorly. Some say acting us much better, some say it is still bad. Some say the action was underwhelming, and some say it was incredible. Some say the pacing was great, some say poor.

I thought this stuff would be less debateable, it's more technical than opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the emotion is powerful, the film is fantastic. Too many people care about the logic and think of a film, and forget to judge the film first by what it does to your heart. I seems that many of you were critiquing the film as you watched it, instead of letting yourself go. That is something a child does not do, nor did people seem to do before the internet, and I think that is why many fans will always hold the original in such high asteem.

#48 of 3062 SteveGon

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:26 AM

Quote:
5. Mace-Palpy-Anakin. I understand what folks are saying about the final turn bit. True, this was just the final step. No need for a huge thing. But...could've benefitted much more if Anakin could have had some more dialogue after the Mace stuff. Something that adds..."look what I've done...One of the Jedi Master's?!...There can be no going back for me now..." Just a little more.

Poor Mace - he's obviously never heard of the fallacy of the talking villain (or hero as the case may be). He should have just ran Palpatine through with his lightsaber and said to Anakin: "Now what were you saying?" Yep, it's all Mace's fault. Posted Image

#49 of 3062 Jason Roer

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:27 AM

Matthew,

Everything is opinion. There is nothing, even technical information, that does not fall directly under the jurisdiction of opinion. Remember, one person will see a scientific study and read it one way, while some one else finds another point of view.


There are glaring, jarring moments in some films that can take a person out of the story. That would set off the critical mind and blind the child's eye. This is apparently what has happened for many people. I can tell you, that after seeing the film last night for the second time (saw a press screening 2 weeks ago), I wasn't as jarred by those "moments" and enjoyed the movie considerably more. So much so, that I can't wait to share it with my wife this weekend. But the flaws still exist and I am frustrated because they aren't things that needed to happen. This could have been a masterpiece - all the elements were there.

Cheers,

Jason

#50 of 3062 Bryan Ri

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:27 AM

Quote:
Having not seen the film, this thread is terribly confusing. Some people say the turn was handled well, and others say poorly. Some say acting us much better, some say it is still bad. Some say the action was underwhelming, and some say it was incredible. Some say the pacing was great, some say poor


Tis the way of the Star Wars fan base Posted Image

#51 of 3062 Jason Roer

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:30 AM

No one has mentioned the fact that ObiWan seems not to remember either C3PO or R2 in A New Hope. This was not addressed. Yes there was the throw away line (completely out of place in its tone by the way - what's with trying to add humor at such inappropriate times?) by Bail that tells us 3PO's mind will be wiped, but that doesn't account for ObiWan not remembering. Anyone with a theory on this one?

Cheers,

Jason

#52 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:34 AM

Quote:
Anyone with a theory on this one?


Jason, even if he did remember them, you think he's going to go into all that with Luke around? It wouldn't match how he withholds the whole truth from Luke anyway.

#53 of 3062 KyleC

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:35 AM

Exactly Chris you beat me to it.

#54 of 3062 Jason Roer

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:47 AM

You don't think that in the entire OT, ObiWan would somehow find a moment to acknowledge the droids? Even if it were just a glance that we would understand from Alec's performance. When the droids are sprung upon him, he looks as though he's never seen them before. My guess is, Lucas simply did not have this plot point worked out. It could have been a very simple quiet moment between ObiWan and the droids.

Cheers,

Jason

#55 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:52 AM

Jason;

It would have been nice, but I'm not sure it's a plot hole.

#56 of 3062 Jason Roer

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Posted May 19 2005 - 01:57 AM

Chris,

How could it not be a plot hole if a major character who has had tremendous interaction with two other major characters is suddenly unaware (or acts as such) of this relationship?

Cheers,

Jason

#57 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 02:00 AM

But it is reasonable to assume that he would act as if he didn't know them. A small moment of acknowledgment, out of Luke's site, would have been a nice touch, but it wouldn't have made sense in 1977, for sure.

#58 of 3062 MarkHastings

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Posted May 19 2005 - 02:01 AM

Ok, I started reading this thread, but I'm WAY too tired to finish, so I appologize if I post somethign already discussed.

I see some aren't crazy about the fast pace of things (mainly Anakins switch to the Dark Side). These were some of my big problems too. The first 2 films (i.e. Ep. I & II) moved along SO slowly through the timeline that Lucas had WAY too much to catch up on in this movie. Everything seemed to be forcibly pushed into connecting this movie with the old trilogy. Mainly the Emperors face change.

I guess I can understand why it would happen so quickly, but as it happened, all I kept thinking was "Lucas is only doing it this way because he needs some way to connect this movie to the old trilogy".

Also, having Anakins burnt face look almost exactly like his face in RotJ, was too much of a jump for me. I understand that Lucas wanted to make you realize the connection between the young Akin and the older one (in Jedi), but it seemed a bit too forced to me.

In retrospect, I wonder if that's what the FORCE is really all about Posted Image

#59 of 3062 Chris Atkins

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Posted May 19 2005 - 02:34 AM

Another one of my favorite moments:

Anakin and Padme's final scene together, Anakin tries to convince her to stay with him so they can rule the galaxy together. Really twisted, really powerful, and a great tie-in to ESB.

#60 of 3062 FredK

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Posted May 19 2005 - 02:39 AM

re: the turn

The turn was handled very well, because it starts with the Tusken slaughter and ends with Padme's death. The Mace-Palpatine decision was just the high point of this arc, but we see a lot of Vader/Anakin mix throughout 1/2 of the PT, and all of RotS.

main complaint:

The score really falls apart at the end, the visual emotion is all over the place, but starting with Padme's funeral procession I just wasn't feeling it through the music. Now I know why no one could remember what music was playing during the star destroyer bridge, I don't even remember now and I was looking for it... very blah last 5 musical minutes to the trilogy (especially compared to the other episodes).

edit:

but the opening score, 10 stars easily, the drums to force theme was amazing, and the score very strong altoghther... just didn't like those last few minutes!


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