Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

tired of the cosmetic revolution


  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 of 40 Ryan Tsang

Ryan Tsang

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 23 2000

Posted April 22 2005 - 06:49 PM

I feel bad for women who feel they have to go under the knife to gain self esteem. I can understand if someone is born with certain defect (cleft lip/palate), has suffered some unfortunate accident (burn victims), or has medically sound reasons to surgically improve or restore their appearance. Of all of the cases that I've seen on tv, most of the women look no better than they did before. The ones that are better are mariginally so, but still no beauty. Instead of turning 2 heads walking into a restaurant, she turns 3. So what? Do these ducklings actually think they could turn into a swan? It's sad really. I think these women could be far more interesting people if they took the time and money and learned a new skill or took up a hobby, travelled, or bought new HT gear (and not plasma and Bose)
I saw this women at a store who appeared to have collagen injections in her lips and it looked like she took a basketball to her beak.

To the women of this world: You are fine the way you are. I prefer you natural, unaltered, with all your flaws, because you are real. I hope it is not wishful thinking to think that most men feel the same. The vanity and lack of self-worth it takes to inject your body with silicone, collagen, and botox is actually far uglier than whatever flaw you think you have. Your fake breasts are no more desirable that your small breasts. You look better standing in front of me than you do in front of a mirror. At the end of the day, it's you I want to lay next to, not some plastic doll. You can't buy self-esteem. It's earned.

#2 of 40 VinhT

VinhT

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted April 23 2005 - 05:18 AM

While your intentions may be good, the tone of your post actually feels rather negative and derogatory towards natural women. Calling them ugly and flawed, and then saying that even after enhancements they aren't much better off doesn't really help. Posted Image
Vinh Tran

#3 of 40 Scott L

Scott L

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 4,466 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 29 2000

Posted April 23 2005 - 07:41 AM

Quote:
Your fake breasts are no more desirable that your small breasts.
rookie.




j/k

#4 of 40 John Watson

John Watson

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 1,937 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 14 2002

Posted April 24 2005 - 02:42 AM

Ryan, Amen!

I don't think 'flaws' as used in your post is the least pejorative.

Unfortunately, survey after survey shows that many people think better looking, taller people, are nicer, smarter, etc.

Which to me only proves many people are shallow and stupid.

#5 of 40 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted April 24 2005 - 08:00 AM

By calling them "ducklings" and calling it "sad" that they think they can be a "swan", you are perpetuating the same social attitude that drives them to seek artificial enhancement to begin with.

Then there's the issue with your condescending personalized "stamp of approval" to "real" women.

Sometimes it pays to think things through before starting a thread.

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P

#6 of 40 Claudia P

Claudia P

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 17 2005

Posted April 24 2005 - 09:11 AM

I'm with Ryan on this one. I don't think Ryan intended to offend, but rather used 'duckling' & 'swan' to illustrate a desire to be transformed from one creature to another. It's just not possible for a 'plain Jane' to become stunningly beautiful with a few cuts of a surgeon's knife or substances injected here & there.

Some of my friends have had cosmetic surgery. The older women wanted to regain a little youth, the younger ones with breast augmentation wanted to please their husbands.

A recent shopping experience had me wondering about how far this obsession with beauty will go - I must have been the only woman in the store who had not been augmented in some way. The fake breasts, the sculpted bodies, the rigid faces (too much botox), the full lips (collagen)- I felt like I was surrounded by androids!

I kinda like my smallish breasts, my soft, shapely body, the laughter lines that map my face. Here's to being au naturale !

#7 of 40 Chu Gai

Chu Gai

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 7,270 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 29 2001

Posted April 24 2005 - 10:36 AM

Doesn't really bother me if women want to go under the knife. I wonder how many men would be out there taking a second mortgage if they could pack on another 6 inches.

#8 of 40 Garrett Lundy

Garrett Lundy

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 3,764 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 05 2002

Posted April 24 2005 - 12:16 PM

Quote:
I wonder how many men would be out there taking a second mortgage if they could pack on another 6 inches.

Jesus Christ man, I don't want every sexual encounter I have to end-up like the 'Lust' murder from Se7en.

But to give maybe a more appropriate querry, How many billions of dollars are spent a hair on hair-replacement procedures?
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#9 of 40 Ryan Tsang

Ryan Tsang

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 23 2000

Posted April 24 2005 - 03:05 PM

Quote:
By calling them "ducklings" and calling it "sad" that they think they can be a "swan", you are perpetuating the same social attitude that drives them to seek artificial enhancement to begin with.


Quote:
Calling them ugly and flawed, and then saying that even after enhancements they aren't much better off doesn't really help.


No one should feel belittled when someone doesn't find him/her attractive. It's like being shot down by a member of the opposite sex after a blind date. Do you go home and whine about it and wish you could be/look like somebody else? Or do you hold you head up high, shake it off, and get on with your life with your pride intact? What does an emotionally strong person do in that situation?

My point is even if one is told that they are old or unattractive, it SHOULD NOT drive them to such lengths to alter who they are. Such lack of a backbone is weak. And if it's their person that is lacking, no amount of physical enhancements can make up for that. Surgery is just a temporary crutch to lean on. As long as the person lacks self-esteem, he/she would go on scrutinizing their body and find more things to fix.

If I was asked to give an honest opinion on someone's nose job, and I thought it really didn't make a difference, I'd tell that person.(Of course I'd do it in a sincere, polite, and honest way, not be an ass about it.) Why? Sure, it seems mean and harsh, but why condone the delusion? Why not tell your buddy his fly is undone? Why not tell your wife you can see her makeup lines so she can fix it? These examples are small and harmless, but should teens get breast implants? Should women relentlessly fight aging? I see these 50-somethings tanning their aging skin, only to like apples that have been sitting out too long. It's husbands who think with their penises that drive women to do these things, not honest people like me.

If one wants to change their appearance for the right reasons, I have no problems with that. This includes body art, tattoos, extreme piercings, and the like. These people clearly know what they want and are doing for themselves. My argument is aimed that those who feel inadequate and insecure, and rely on others' approval for their sense of self worth.

I have skinny chicken legs. Should I stop wearing shorts in the summer or rush to get calf implants? Cuz I really want to impress the chicks you know. While I'm at it, should I go buy the most badass Ford pickup? Cuz when I pull up to a party, that will undoubtedly add some masculinity to my skinny ass, won't it?




No...I would not get penial (sp?) implants. Any women who won't accept me for who I am can leave.

#10 of 40 Ryan Tsang

Ryan Tsang

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 23 2000

Posted April 24 2005 - 03:25 PM

Quote:
It's just not possible for a 'plain Jane' to become stunningly beautiful with a few cuts of a surgeon's knife or substances injected here & there.


That is EXACTLY my point. In auto terms...You can't turn a Civic into an M3. Any woman who does needs Dr. Phil, not Dr. Scalpel. Either you're born with it or you're not, nothing can change that about the human face. The great thing is, even if you think you're not, somebody out there thinks you are.

#11 of 40 Chu Gai

Chu Gai

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 7,270 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 29 2001

Posted April 24 2005 - 03:35 PM

Quote:
These people clearly know what they want and are doing for themselves.
Objection your honor. Calls for a conclusion.

If you've got a problem with women that go in for that Ryan, just don't date them.

#12 of 40 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted April 24 2005 - 03:36 PM

Quote:
No one should feel belittled when someone doesn't find him/her attractive. It's like being shot down by a member of the opposite sex after a blind date. Do you go home and whine about it and wish you could be/look like somebody else? Or do you hold you head up high, shake it off, and get on with your life with your pride intact? What does an emotionally strong person do in that situation?

Even "emotionally strong" people have egos, and *gasp!* vanities. Being self-assured is not the same as thinking oneself to be perfect and without flaw.

Quote:
My point is even if one is told that they are old or unattractive, it SHOULD NOT drive them to such lengths to alter who they are. Such lack of a backbone is weak. And if it's their person that is lacking, no amount of physical enhancements can make up for that. Surgery is just a temporary crutch to lean on. As long as the person lacks self-esteem, he/she would go on scrutinizing their body and find more things to fix.

You have a very narrow view of a very complex issue, and are attributing perceived motivations to people who may or may not actually share them.

Quote:
If I was asked to give an honest opinion on someone's nose job, and I thought it really didn't make a difference, I'd tell that person.(Of course I'd do it in a sincere, polite, and honest way, not be an ass about it.) Why? Sure, it seems mean and harsh, but why condone the delusion? Why not tell your buddy his fly is undone? Why not tell your wife you can see her makeup lines so she can fix it? These examples are small and harmless, but should teens get breast implants? Should women relentlessly fight aging?

Again, you're taking a wide range of situations and lumping them all together into a rant against cosmetic enhancement, and it just doesn't hold water. A teenage girl peer-pressured into altering her still-developing body to try to live up to an impossible, artificial standard, is tragic. A mature woman making a conscious choice to try to at least superficially slow aging, is a different situation altogether. Is Bob DelMonteque "pathetic" for looking the way he does in his 80s? Is he vain for trying to "relentlessly fight aging"?

Quote:
If one wants to change their appearance for the right reasons, I have no problems with that. This includes body art, tattoos, extreme piercings, and the like. These people clearly know what they want and are doing for themselves. My argument is aimed that those who feel inadequate and insecure, and rely on others' approval for their sense of self worth.

Excuse me, they "clearly know what they want"? You dismiss people who cosmetically alter their bodies as "pathetic", "sad", "insecure", "lacking in personality", but assume everyone who's ever gotten pierced or inked is some sort of well-adjusted, mature individual?

Dude, come on. Right, no one ever got pierced or tattooed because it was trendy, no one ever regretted getting a silly tat with the name of a lover who turned out to not be quite as permanent as the ink itself, no one ever got their ears done on impulse at a party, every single instance of "extreme" body modification was the result of careful analysis and contemplation, and a work of art. No bias there, eh? Right. Sure. Excuse me, I'm late for my bridge owners meeting.

Quote:
I have skinny chicken legs. Should I stop wearing shorts in the summer or rush to get calf implants? Cuz I really want to impress the chicks you know. While I'm at it, should I go buy the most badass Ford pickup? Cuz when I pull up to a party, that will undoubtedly add some masculinity to my skinny ass, won't it?

No...I would not get penial (sp?) implants. Any women who won't accept me for who I am can leave.

I used to have skinny chicken legs. I didn't care for them. So I worked out and filled them a bit. No need for surgery, it's not a black-and-white, zero-sum issue.

And yes, I agree, any woman who can't accept me for who I am can leave. What you seem to be willfully ignoring is that a lot of people alter their physique, for themselves, not to please someone else. Right now, I have some extra weight. I desperately want to lose it. My fianceé loves me, and whenever I whine about my weight, or not liking my reflection right now, she sweetly reassures me that she loves me for me, not for however I may look. And she is truthful, because trust me, it ain't money that's keeping her around Posted Image But I want to do it anyway, for me. And so do many other people. You seem to be consistently ignoring this possibility because it gets in the way of your all-inclusive rant against all forms of cosmetic manipulation (except tattoos and piercings, I guess. No bias there, again.)

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P

#13 of 40 Holadem

Holadem

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 8,972 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 04 2000

Posted April 24 2005 - 03:46 PM

Quote:
Your fake breasts are no more desirable that your small breasts.
Speak for yourself Posted Image (well, you are...)
Quote:
You look better standing in front of me than you do in front of a mirror.
What you think is vastly irrelevant, to them, it's what they think of themselves that matters. No amounts of compliments from their partners will change that.
Quote:
It's just not possible for a 'plain Jane' to become stunningly beautiful with a few cuts of a surgeon's knife or substances injected here & there.
Yes it is. The same way "Plain Jane" can look dramatically better if she would just pick up an issue of and start actually trying to look attractive.
Quote:
My point is even if one is told that they are old or unattractive, it SHOULD NOT drive them to such lengths to alter who they are. Such lack of a backbone is weak. And if it's their person that is lacking, no amount of physical enhancements can make up for that. Surgery is just a temporary crutch to lean on. As long as the person lacks self-esteem, he/she would go on scrutinizing their body and find more things to fix.
Uh... this is NOT true at all, anyone who has taken Psych 101 will tell you as much. You come from the (obsolete) school of thougth that change can only be effectuated from inside out - that is absolutely wrong. "Outside in" works as well.

There is such a thing as "fake it till you make it" (cut it till you make it?). Meaning, in this case, a person with low self-esteem who decides to take care of their apparence by some artificial mean (new clothes, haircut, surgery, whatever) will feel better afterwards. The behaviour-attitude relationship goes both ways.

--
H

#14 of 40 Ryan Tsang

Ryan Tsang

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 372 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 23 2000

Posted April 24 2005 - 06:39 PM

Quote:
What you seem to be willfully ignoring is that a lot of people alter their physique, for themselves, not to please someone else.


I'm not counting those people because there's nothing wrong with that. But you can't honestly tell me that there's isn't a whole nation of people doing it for more shallow reasons. Am I too cynical to think there's more of "them" than there are of you?


Quote:
What you think is vastly irrelevant, to them, it's what they think of themselves that matters. No amounts of compliments from their partners will change that.


Why don't we just let anorexics starve to death then? Why interfere cuz you can never change their minds right? Before you guys jump down my throat...yes, that's an extreme example. But I see the need of SOME people (so as to not whitewash everyone) to look like an air-brushed Maxim cover girl as a milder form of that sickness. Working-out and adopting a healthy lifestyle doesn't count...okay? Botox and collagen and liposuction is a cop-out.



Quote:
a person with low self-esteem who decides to take care of their apparence by some artificial mean (new clothes, haircut, surgery, whatever) will feel better afterwards.


It all comes down to how much change is actually done. If we're talking losing 80lbs and then having the excess skin removed. Fine. If we're talking about bulking up 25lbs of muscle. All the power to you. Those are big, life-altering changes. Getting rid of wrinkles is not. I know this girl who's getting braces to slightly de-rotate one canine in a dentition that most people AFTER braces don't even have. (I'm a dentist so I know) She trims about 1/2 inch of hair at a nearby salon everytime she says "she's having an ugly day." This girl also very voluptuous and has tried (probably not very hard) to lose weight. The way I see it, the teeth and the hair thing is like fixing door dings on a car. It doesn't do anything. She'd ask me: "So.. what do you think?" after such haircuts. Every time I'd say: "Looks the same as you always do," because she does. She'd be much happier, healthier, and better off if she'd spent all her energy and money into healthier eating and exercise. I see all sorts of normal folks spending thousands tweaking to look like....normal folks. Not too far removed from buying Nordost cables
for a receiver and HTiB.

I don't want these breasts/eyes/thighs or this age is the same to me as me saying "I don't want to be Chinese, I want to be an a 6'2, 210lb, Cauasian, Ivy League quaterback."



I've done laps on this many times before. Sometimes I can play Devil's Advocate and argue against myself and make sense like you guys do. I'm just tired of seeing all these makeover shows and 50-somethings on a Bowflex thinking she can turn back time. I wonder how many people would go to such lengths to have a beach body if there's no one to show off to? How many SoCal girls would get implants if they were forced to live in the Arctic under a parka for 10months? My point is, many do such things for vanity in hopes to get noticed. Normal folks should never be disillusioned to think money can buy them beauty.

#15 of 40 John Watson

John Watson

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 1,937 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 14 2002

Posted April 24 2005 - 09:11 PM

"A recent shopping experience had me wondering about how far this obsession with beauty will go - I must have been the only woman in the store who had not been augmented in some way. The fake breasts, the sculpted bodies, the rigid faces (too much botox), the full lips (collagen)- I felt like I was surrounded by androids!"

How far? It goes on all the way to fantasies of eternal life - and includes drug cures for shyness, cures for cancer, genetic modifications and engineering to produce perfect babies, etc. Posted Image

#16 of 40 Chu Gai

Chu Gai

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 7,270 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 29 2001

Posted April 24 2005 - 11:59 PM

For some examples of surgery gone wrong, check out http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/

#17 of 40 Ricardo C

Ricardo C

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 5,060 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002

Posted April 25 2005 - 12:42 AM

Quote:
I don't want these breasts/eyes/thighs or this age is the same to me as me saying "I don't want to be Chinese, I want to be an a 6'2, 210lb, Cauasian, Ivy League quaterback."

That's a ridiculous analogy. Seriously.

Man, an hour wasted on this sig! Thanks, Toshiba! :P

#18 of 40 Garrett Lundy

Garrett Lundy

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 3,764 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 05 2002

Posted April 25 2005 - 04:20 AM

Quote:
I don't want these breasts/eyes/thighs or this age is the same to me as me saying "I don't want to be Chinese, I want to be an a 6'2, 210lb, Cauasian, Ivy League quaterback."

Thats funny, because I'd rather be a 5'2" Japanese woman with straight hair and perky breasts. maybe we should get the same doctor? Posted Image

Quote:
I'm just tired of seeing all these makeover shows and 50-somethings on a Bowflex thinking she can turn back time.

There are many good and valid reasons that are not simply vanity why more people should be engaging in regular exercise and strength training. Especially in the 50+ age bracket.
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#19 of 40 Claudia P

Claudia P

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 58 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 17 2005

Posted April 25 2005 - 06:59 AM

One of my relatives is an exercise physiologist. He has a research team working on the 'problem' of aging. Each of our cells has a predetermined life, a little 'clock' inside that one day just stops. His team are trying to keep that clock running thereby extending the life of the cells and in the process hope to uncover the secrets of eternal life. So I have some knowledge of scientific research in this area and of the direction of genetic engineering etc. I'm in no doubt as to how far the obsession with eternal youth will take us and the scale of tax dollars being spent in research across the sciences.

On the subject of cosmetic surgery, it concerns me that so many 12 & 13 year olds with still-developing bodies feel the pressure to have breast implants or feel the need to undergo 'corrective' surgery.

Yes, a good hair cut, a little make-up and well-cut clothes that suit the body shape can make all the difference to one's appearance. But that is not the point of the discussion. I think Ryan is getting at what motivates women (and men - look at Michael Jackson) to undergo radical cosmetic surgery. It's not all positive. Psych 101 will reveal that, too.

I'm reminded of the lyrics of a song:

"She lives around the corner from the fountain of youth"

Don't we all. Posted Image

#20 of 40 MikeEn

MikeEn

    Advanced Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 17 2000

Posted April 25 2005 - 07:09 AM

A recent shopping experience had me wondering about how far this obsession with beauty will go - I must have been the only woman in the store who had not been augmented in some way. The fake breasts, the sculpted bodies, ... the full lips ...

I kinda like my smallish breasts ... the laughter lines that map my face.


Umm, yeah, me too, sure thing. Where exactly is that store?


Back to After Hours Lounge


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Forum Nav Content I Follow