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rms wattage discrepencies among brands?


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#1 of 47 OFFLINE   jeff.m

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Posted March 15 2005 - 05:46 PM

i'm looking into buying a new reciever and i'm trying to decide between the Harman Kardon AVR-335, Denon AVR-2105, and the pioneer 1014. but what i've noticed is that the hk has a much lower wattage output. at least in the published specs. it's only rated at 55 watts. the denon and pioneer are aproximately twice that. so what gives? i understand that there really aren't any standards for measuring output in the industry, but how am i supposed to know what will work best with my speakers? this receiver is going to be hooked up to some energy connoisseur's. i suppose i could try to find someplace that would let me take each of them home for a test, but that may be kinda tough. anyone have any input? is hk's power under-rated or are the others over-rated? quality of sound is most important, so right now my preference is the h/k, then the denon, then the pioneer. but i just want to be certain that the h/k won't be underpowered.

#2 of 47 OFFLINE   John S

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Posted March 16 2005 - 01:59 AM

I'll just say the differences between either of those three is not enough to make any difference. Only a step to like the Denon 3805 would be notice-able at all. They are all very fine capable AVRs indeed.

Probably not the answer you wanted, but that is the reality of it.

I got a Pioneer 1014 and played with it quite a bit and while I do think it is absolutely the most bang for your buck these days, it lacks a crucial feature for how I wanted to use it so I am sending it back. Not really a fair test I know, but my Denon 4802 sure toasts it in my environment and use, but that particular Denon AVR raises the bar pretty high and you get used to that level after a few years of having it. Posted Image

#3 of 47 OFFLINE   jeff.m

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Posted March 16 2005 - 02:52 AM

mind if i ask which feature the pioneer doesn't have? and what makes that denon so superior to the h/k and pioneer?

#4 of 47 OFFLINE   John S

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Posted March 16 2005 - 03:05 AM

Real Power Amp Inputs is what the 1014 lacks that I need.

Denon is not so superior, but the Denon 4802 was / is a very high end AVR. Meaner power supply, beefier output stages, ect..ect...

On the performance side, the 1014 really lost all it's head room at or even near reference levels, I was afraid it was going to take out a driver / tweet....

As I said not a fair comparison at all.. The 4802 was a $2K+ unit, and the Pioneer is a like $400 unit. I don't think the 2105 would have any performance gains over the 1014, but that is not what I got to run it head to head against at length.

#5 of 47 OFFLINE   jeff.m

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Posted March 16 2005 - 03:34 AM

thanks for the input. it helps Posted Image

#6 of 47 OFFLINE   RichardCK

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Posted March 17 2005 - 11:18 AM

I own the HK 335. I finally purchased it after lot's of research. I auditioned a Denon, Onkyo and the HK at home. This replaced a Yamaha. Don't pay attention to wattage hype. The 55 watts of the hk are just as loud if not louder than the other brands that advertise 100 watts. The hk is a high current amp the current is what drives the power. If you can stand to be in the room with the hk turned all the way up you loose nothing out of the music. I saw a test that a local audio store did on several receiver's in your price range the pioneer actually tested at 47 watts peak. The HK 335 tested at 110 watts peak. Don't be fooled by hype, the Pioneer brand is not a Cadillac unless it is an elite. The Denon is more comparable to the HK between the 2 it comes down to sound. The HK is definitely warmer sounding, The Denon was too bright with my Klipsch speakers.

#7 of 47 OFFLINE   John S

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Posted March 18 2005 - 02:22 AM

The 1014 tested out at 47watts? Hmm, Every "independent" test I have seen shows it way to be way higher than that.

#8 of 47 OFFLINE   RichardCK

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Posted March 18 2005 - 03:33 AM

I honestly can't remember if it was the 1014, or a differemt model.

#9 of 47 OFFLINE   Greg Yeatts

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Posted March 18 2005 - 04:16 AM

Here is a link review of the Pioneer Elite 52TX home theater receiver.

http://hometheaterma....er/index2.html[/url]

With five channels driven the receiver puts out 115 watts per channel. Except for a second zone option the Elite 52TX and the Pioneer 1014TX share innards and the same service manual. I have owned a 1014TX now and am very impressed by its power output. It has much more guts than my old Onkyo 601.

Here is a link that shows the available service manual for the 1014TX and the 52TX.

http://parts.pioneer...m/...X-1014TX-K

Also, the specifications listed in the owners manual of both models are identical.

#10 of 47 OFFLINE   Jan Strnad

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Posted March 18 2005 - 11:40 AM

H/K rates its amps very conservatively.

So, basically...what John said.

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#11 of 47 OFFLINE   Guy Usher

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Posted March 18 2005 - 07:25 PM

Look at the back plate on the 1014 where it shows power consumption at 480 watts. . . Do the math. . . You can not get 5x110 out of 480. . . For true 5x110 you would see something like 1000-1200 watts. . .
Even Monkeys fall from trees.

#12 of 47 OFFLINE   VinhT

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Posted March 19 2005 - 07:02 AM

Guy,
While that sounds valid in theory, I strongly suspect that power output cannot be generalized in such a simple manner.
Vinh Tran

#13 of 47 OFFLINE   Shiu

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Posted March 19 2005 - 09:29 AM

Quote:
Look at the back plate on the 1014 where it shows power consumption at 480 watts. . . Do the math. . . You can not get 5x110 out of 480. . . For true 5x110 you would see something like 1000-1200 watts. . .


Please......again, we do not know at what output level that power consumption number is for. For argument sake, it could have been for consumption at typical listening conditions.

The funny thing is, manufacturers (H.K. being one of the exceptions)tend to inflate their maximum output but minimize their power intake, i.e. consumption, perhaps to show that it is energy efficient and that it costs you less in electricity. I have read many reviews on receivers that output more power than their back plate consumption number would suggest. Not that it defies basic engineering principle, simply that those numbers are based on unspecified conditions.

#14 of 47 OFFLINE   Greg Yeatts

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Posted March 19 2005 - 10:45 AM

Guy

Look at the actual test on the link I posted. Those are actual numbers not speculation.

#15 of 47 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted March 19 2005 - 01:02 PM

I guess you could say that I'm a bit of a newbie, but I have some observations.

The FTC regulates how companies report amplifier wattages, perhaps in a bid to rid the marketplace of "2200 WATT PPMO amplifier with HyperBASS technology" type scams. 16 CFR 423.

There might be a bit of wiggle room (this site says there's more than just a bit) in how these tests are done. I've heard that some test their receivers within a restricted range (40Hz-20kHz), but most reputable manufacturers test the "full" 20Hz-20kHz range. The "maximum acceptable THD" varies from brand to brand.
It is clear to me that the Pioneer is really designed for 100 WPC: the distortion increases more rapidly after that point. Of course, this may only be an artifact of the semilog plot: the difference between 0.01% THD and 0.05% THD is negligible.

I say it can do 100 watts at 0.01, Pioneer claims 110 wpc at 0.05%, and HomeTheaterMag says it can do 115 watts at 0.1%.

#16 of 47 OFFLINE   Shiu

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Posted March 19 2005 - 01:23 PM

It boils down to whether the 1014 in fact has P/S and amps identical to those of the 52TX, its cousin on the Elite side. If it does, then it could be the most powerful 7.1 receiver at that price point.

#17 of 47 OFFLINE   JeremyErwin

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Posted March 19 2005 - 06:33 PM

For purposes of comparison, here's the Hometheater Magazine review of the Denon 2105.

Quote:
Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 62.4 watts; 1% distortion at 67.8 watts

a bit less than the Pioneer Elite 52TX
Quote:
• Five channels driven into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 115.3 watts; 1% distortion at 129.7 watts


#18 of 47 OFFLINE   Shiu

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Posted March 20 2005 - 01:33 AM

Jeremy, based on those recent HTM reviews, the 52TX has even more output than HK's AVR630 and Denon's 3805 (only slightly). I find it hard to believe the 1014TX can do it for so much less, i.e. $400.

#19 of 47 OFFLINE   jeff.m

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Posted March 21 2005 - 11:33 AM

thanks for all the info so far guys. i want to throw a couple more things in for discussion. i went to listen to the denon at a store near me today and while i was there i inquired if they carried h/k so i could try to hear different recievers on the same speakers. the guy told me that they didn't carry h/k anymore b/c the quality of their interior components has gone downhill the past couple of years. that they use lesser parts to save money. i told him i was looking for a high current reciever and he suggested the yamaha rxv-1500. so:

1. is the quality of h/k still good as it used to be, or is it, in fact, going down?

2. how does the yamaha rxv line stand up against it and the denon?

again, thanks for all the input. i appreciate it.

#20 of 47 OFFLINE   Ryan Leemhuis

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Posted March 21 2005 - 12:05 PM

1. Think about it, they don't sell HK so they will say anything to get you to buy something they do sell. HK is still just as good as it always has been.

People that have bought the 335 or 435 have always been happy, I have never met someone who regrets it.

I also haven't seen anyone unhappy with a 2105 or a 2805.

And people are happy with their 1014's obviously

Basically, in the end, most of these receivers have similar features. You can decide which you like the looks of better....which has the most beneficial features for you....which would work be with your speakers. Just know you really can't go wrong with any of these.





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