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DVNR-Do People Not Know What This Is?


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#1 of 17 OFFLINE   ScottR

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Posted March 01 2005 - 05:11 PM

Excessive Digital Video Noise Reduction has plagued many of my favorite movies and tv series...now it has been applied to The Brady Bunch and makes that show look terrible. No review I have read of the set makes mention of this. Do people not know what it is? Every light or shiny object is attacked by the DVNR, resulting in a distracting flicker making lots of objects on the screen dance. Two other shows affected by this are The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Star Trek. And movies such as The Ten Commandments. Is there a system out there that can help to get rid of these artifacts? And how much of them are caused by interlacing? Thanks.

#2 of 17 OFFLINE   Rich Malloy

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Posted March 02 2005 - 01:24 AM

I'm not familiar with this practice, but I frickin' abhor noise reduction for music transfers... no hiss, but it makes it sound like I'm listening underwater. I cannot stand it, and I'm glad to see this practice starting to fade.
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#3 of 17 OFFLINE   John Whittle

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Posted March 02 2005 - 02:19 AM

DVNR [digital video noise reduction] was considered the greatest thing since sliced bread when it first appeared. Within a few years it was avoided like the plague. With a light touch and careful use, it can conceal some problems. Like a fancy drop-out compensator it worked back in age of 1 inch video tape.

I think many of the titles you mentioned have master tapes that may already have been infected with DNVR and once it, it doesn't come out. The cost of remastering film titles of old television shows (where new pre-print materials would need to be manufactured as well as telecine) probably removes them from making it to the market.

I remember thinking back in 1994 that DNVR would solve some negative dirt problems on a film transfer I was supervising, I found out it wouldn't help.

John

#4 of 17 OFFLINE   Stephen PI

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Posted March 02 2005 - 02:56 AM

Several years ago I spent a lot of time protesting against the misuse of this technology on the various forums but there was little response as most people could not see it or were not bothered enough by it.
I went on telecine forums and received no support, even from the manufacturers.
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#5 of 17 OFFLINE   Patrick McCart

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Posted March 02 2005 - 03:17 AM

You can't get rid of DVNR if it's on a DVD.

One of the worst offenders I've seen is Paramount's "The Court Jester" Shot in VistaVision, yet it looks like something 16mm would produce. There is almost no detail left, the contrast is out of whack.... and the DVNR applied makes it even worse.

On the other hand, To Catch a Thief (produced the same year, 1956) has beautiful film grain, excellent contrast and detail. So, I really hope Paramount can do whatever they did for "Thief" for The Court Jester.

#6 of 17 OFFLINE   ScottR

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Posted March 02 2005 - 05:12 AM

In the case of the Brady's it looks like they have a strobe light in their kitchen! The appliances blink like crazy.

#7 of 17 OFFLINE   Eric_B_C

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Posted March 02 2005 - 05:28 AM

Would like to see an example of this as it sounds dire!

I've only recently discovered the evils of too much edge enhancement.

#8 of 17 OFFLINE   Stephen PI

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Posted March 02 2005 - 07:11 AM

The 16x9 Pal or NTSC version of "Earthquake" should give you a nice breaking in.
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#9 of 17 OFFLINE   Jason Borchers

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Posted March 02 2005 - 10:47 AM

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#10 of 17 OFFLINE   Stephen PI

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Posted March 02 2005 - 01:41 PM

I think we have to make it clear that with DVNR there are at least two destructive aspects to this tool. You have just been describing the most commonly known aspect of it. To me the more offensive yet rarely aknowledged is the dirt removal part, which I think ScottR is concerned with, which causes the horrible 'pulsing' effect.
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#11 of 17 OFFLINE   Andre Bijelic

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Posted March 02 2005 - 01:48 PM

I truly despise DVNR. Give me a grainy, noisy image any day over a muddy, smeary filtered, overly "digital" image.

The "Star Wars" LDs are pretty bad - I actually prefer the original widescreen releases to the (supposedly) superior THX reissues.

But the worst offender has to be MGMs current "No Way Out" DVD. It's unwatchable. I watched a couple of minutes of it after purchasing it and promptly sold it the next day.
Don't tug on that, you never know what it might be attached to...

#12 of 17 OFFLINE   ScottR

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Posted March 02 2005 - 02:24 PM

The original release of The Shawshank Redemption is another offender/

#13 of 17 OFFLINE   ScottR

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Posted March 02 2005 - 03:11 PM

Just checked some more of The Brady Bunch...it's the worst I've ever seen. Who wants to see inanimate objects moving around the screen? And when there are any kitchen scenes with chrome...forget it. My favorite show has been ruined. I don't even think I can finish the set. Posted Image

#14 of 17 OFFLINE   John Wielgosz

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Posted March 02 2005 - 04:10 PM

The transfer for 'Aliens' on the Quadrilogy box set comes to mind. Yech, smearing and pixelization everywhere. I need to pull out my older 'Legacy' disc to see if the same thing occurs there.

Not sure if the problem exists on my 'Jurassic Park' DTS DVD, but the symptoms are similar. It looks fine (not great, mind you), until the camera moves and half of the detail drops out of the image. Borderline unwatchable. Posted Image

#15 of 17 OFFLINE   Brian Cruz

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Posted March 02 2005 - 04:57 PM

DVNR is especially atrocious when applied to animation, which you can see for yourself.
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#16 of 17 OFFLINE   Gordon McMurphy

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Posted March 02 2005 - 06:03 PM

Quote:
One of the worst offenders I've seen is Paramount's "The Court Jester" Shot in VistaVision, yet it looks like something 16mm would produce.
Really? Parmount own great elements for this film:

Original camera negative (VistaVision)
Inter-negative
Inter-positive
Yellow-Cyan-Magenta (YCM) separation masters (VisaVision)
YCM separation masters (4 perf)

Magnetic mono composite audio master
Music and effects magnetic masters
High Definition tape master

Source

Very strange. I hate it when a crap transfer is made when I know that great elements exist. It is even worse when those elements are often stored in the same building where the transfer was made.


#17 of 17 OFFLINE   Michel_Hafner

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Posted March 02 2005 - 07:17 PM

The really bad news is that DNR (or digital grain reduction) is now popular with digital intermediates and therefore the artifacts pop up on 35mm prints!!! Something that used to be limited to video only is now on theater screens. Very ugly and disturbing. And the Academy hands out Oscars for this... rubbish: The Aviator! This show is grain reduced from start to finish. Just focus on human skin when you watch the film. Really bad. Other bad examples on 35mm are "Seabiscuit", "Big Fish", the IMAX remasters of Matrix (some shots only), Kill Bill (to some extent), some shots on the LOTR movies and others.