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SVS PB12-Plus2 vs. SVS PC Ultra


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21 replies to this topic

#1 of 22 OFFLINE   Dennis Pagoulatos

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Posted January 30 2005 - 11:28 AM

Hi everybody,

They're both roughly the same price...bottom line, which will produce more bass...or are they roughly the same in performance?

The PB12 has two 12" drivers and a 900 watt amp and the PC Ultra has one 12" driver and a 550 watt amp...but one is a box enclosure (less efficient?) and the other is a cylinder.

WAF isn't a factor, I can get either one, but I'd like some input on which will give me the most SPL for my $$$. How clean and low the output is is also a big factor since I'm moving to one of these from a Velo HGS-12, which has very low distortion.

Thanks in advance!

-Dennis
He must have died while carving it!...

#2 of 22 OFFLINE   AlanZ

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Posted January 30 2005 - 11:48 AM

If you want max spl, then the PB12-Plus2 is your sub.
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-Dustin Hoffman as 'Bernie Focker'

Updated Equipment List

#3 of 22 OFFLINE   Dennis Pagoulatos

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Posted January 30 2005 - 11:55 AM

Okay, that's good to know...

A couple more questions:

Which will play more cleanly?

Which will play lower?

-Dennis
He must have died while carving it!...

#4 of 22 OFFLINE   Bryan P

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Posted January 31 2005 - 07:04 AM

Here's my suggestion:

If your primary use is music, get the PC-Ultra. It is the one to get for better transient response and cleaner output.

If your primary use is home theater, get the PB12-Plus/2. It is the one to get for higher maximum output.

In my opinion, these are not "night and day" sonic differences. Both are fine subwoofers and you would probably be happy with either one.

#5 of 22 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted January 31 2005 - 11:29 AM

In my opinion, these are not "night and day" sonic differences. Both are fine subwoofers and you would probably be happy with either one.
__________________________________________________ ___

I'm with Bryan. Both are great subs except to say the landscape is changing on the PB12-Plus/2. Ruler flat down to 20 or so. Sounds like your looking for the most SPL and I can certainly understand that. My vote would be to go for the PB12-Plus/2 then.

#6 of 22 OFFLINE   Mike Reeter

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Posted January 31 2005 - 11:53 AM

Dennis,I was in the same spot you're in...I went with the PCU simply because of the size,weight,and appearence...I really like the "look" of the cylinder,and it's smaller footprint...

I can't tell you which is the best,if placement or size of the sub is not an issue,and your primary use is for HT,I would go with the big box,although I can't imagine it outperforming the PC Ultra by much...

Tough call,good luck!!!

#7 of 22 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 31 2005 - 12:42 PM

More than likely, the Plus will also go lower too.
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#8 of 22 OFFLINE   Bhagi Katbamna

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Posted January 31 2005 - 08:10 PM

The main thing is: How big is the room you are going to put it in?
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#9 of 22 OFFLINE   MikeLi

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Posted February 01 2005 - 02:18 AM

How big is your room?
Do you like to feel the bass or just hear it?

If your mostly into HT and like to feel it get the plus for sure. I love mine and it replaced dual NHT 12"ers powered with 900 watts each. Not even a close compairison. I have a pretty large room with high ceilings vaulted that also in one portion of the side opens up into the eating/kitchen area. When that PB12+ dual fires you can feel the chest hairs move on your chest and I love that!!!! Most definantly get the PLUS!

#10 of 22 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted February 01 2005 - 04:48 AM

Quote:
...which will give me the most SPL for my $$$.


With both set to the 20 Hz tune, the PB12-Plus/2 will have approximately a 2 dB advantage from 18-23 Hz and a 4 dB advantage above 25 Hz in clean (i.e., distortion limited) output as compared to a single PC-Ultra.

Quote:
Which will play lower?


PB12-Plus/2 - Typical In-Room Extension (0 to -2 dB)

25 Hz tune: 20-21 Hz
20 Hz tune: 15-16 Hz
16 Hz tune: 12-13 Hz

PC-Ultra - Typical In-Room Extension (0 to -2 dB)

20 Hz tune: 15-16 Hz
16 Hz tune: 12-13 Hz
12 Hz tune: 8-9 Hz

Be aware that as you lower the tune of the subwoofer, you are sacrificing dynamic output capability and efficiency; there is no free lunch so to speak.

For each drop in tune, expect a 2-3 dB loss in efficiency and dynamic output capability. You can compensate for the efficiency loss by bumping the subwoofer level 2-3 dB each time you plug a port, but you cannot recover the lost headroom. That is why it is important up front to determine what your particular needs are for HT, music, playback level and preferred in-room extension. Then pick the subwoofer which most closely matches those needs in its native tune or with one port plugged.

The PB12-Plus/2 will operate optimally in the 25 Hz tune, and still very efficiently in the 20 Hz tune. The 16 Hz tune will certainly troll very deep, but overall efficiency and dynamic output will be limited (about 5 dB lower than the 25 Hz tune), so this tune is best for mid-size rooms at less than plaster cracking levels.

And the same concept applies to the PC-Ultra in the 16 Hz and 12 Hz tunes.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#11 of 22 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted February 01 2005 - 05:04 AM

Quote:
If your primary use is music, get the PC-Ultra. It is the one to get for better transient response and cleaner output.

Why is that?
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#12 of 22 OFFLINE   Jeff-0

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Posted February 01 2005 - 08:39 AM

I have the 20/39pc+ and have a question. I run it in the out of box tune 20Hz. Will plugging one of the tubes tighten its response? Not that it is flabby by any means but I am just curious if I did as someone stated and plug one hole and up the level will it from a mechanical standpoint be tighter? I understand the connection to decreased output but it would seem that as you restrict the ports the response would increase. Am I on the right track here?

#13 of 22 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted February 01 2005 - 09:45 AM

With the new tuning Tom V has mentioned regarding the PB12-Plus/2> it will definitely change past thinking.

It would be nice to see you do a review on the new model Ed. HintPosted Image

#14 of 22 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted February 01 2005 - 10:26 AM

Hi Steve:

I think the PB12-Plus and the PB12-Ultra will get the 20 Hz native tune with all three ports open.

The PB12-Plus/2 and the PB12-Ultra/2 will retain the 25, 20, 16 Hz tuning options.

The new tuning arrangement and new enclosure in the single driver Plus and Ultra models might very well merit a closer look. Anyone interested in a review of either model can ping John Johnson at Secrets; he calls the shots.

Regards,

Ed
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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#15 of 22 OFFLINE   SVS-Ron

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Posted February 01 2005 - 11:13 AM

Ed's right.

We've mentioned that to a few folks including his boss Dr. John Johnson probably (occupational hazard of too many people and too little sleep at CES).

The R/D shop is quite excited to have perfected the deeper 20hz (anechoic) extension configuration on the upcoming PB12-Ultra and revised PB12-Plus. They'll essentially be configured like the popular PC-Ultra and 20-39PC-Plus in that regard. The slightly higher variable configuration on the more brutish PB12-Ultra/2 and Plus/2 will remain. We just hate to mess with those products (no sub is perfect probably but there are times you just can't see a way to improve things much).

Having seen the complex port arrangement and heard the prototypes I know these new single driver Power Box SVS's will be well received (there's other changes I can't reveal at this time but some of them have actually been shipping for quite a while in other products ;^).

As for a review Ed, well, it isn't gonna happen if JJ doesn't ask... and at this point he hasn't ;^) You might want to ring him up. There could be a couple beta units we can release in the next few weeks but I know at least one other mag's asked for one too (and that presumes I can even pry one out of R/D's hands).

Ask JJ to give us a shout if he wants to get the Secrets name in the hat for one. When I have a few more to dole out we'll of course go looking for reviewers on these two new SVS's; but early on there's always more willing testers than there are test subs.

Ron

#16 of 22 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted February 01 2005 - 12:25 PM

The PB12-Plus/2 and the PB12-Ultra/2 will retain the 25, 20, 16 Hz tuning options.
__________________________________________________ ______

I'll be darned and I see I was definitely mistaken. Just backtracked and sure enough! My thinking was the PB12-Plus/2 would have the new 20Hz stock tune. I put a vote in for going back to the old style descriptions RonPosted Image

#17 of 22 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted February 01 2005 - 02:00 PM

Quote:
As for a review Ed, well, it isn't gonna happen if JJ doesn't ask... and at this point he hasn't ;^) You might want to ring him up. There could be a couple beta units we can release in the next few weeks but I know at least one other mag's asked for one too (and that presumes I can even pry one out of R/D's hands).

I'll discuss it with JJ and see if we can swing it. The weather has been horrible and I just finished a finger numbing GP session last Sat and swore I wouldn't do another one again until it broke 40 degrees. Of course I say that every time.....I'm such a glutton for punishment. Posted Image

There's something oddly satisfying when the neighbors swing by for a cup of joe and ask what all those weird sounds are emanting from that box in the middle of the yard - sure makes for some interesting talk. Posted Image
Ed Mullen
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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#18 of 22 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted February 01 2005 - 02:05 PM

Ed if you happen to make it back, would this be the contact over at Secrets?

Susan Johnson> sej123@sbcglobal.net

#19 of 22 OFFLINE   Dennis Pagoulatos

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Posted February 01 2005 - 02:48 PM

Wow guys...thanks for all the responses!

I prefer lower distortion to SPL...and this will be installed in a decent sized room (18x20' roughly and completely open on one side to the kitchen and hallway.)

Would 2 PC-Ultra's be better in that case over the one PB?

-Dennis
He must have died while carving it!...

#20 of 22 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted February 01 2005 - 10:02 PM

Quote:
I prefer lower distortion to SPL...and this will be installed in a decent sized room (18x20' roughly and completely open on one side to the kitchen and hallway.)

Would 2 PC-Ultra's be better in that case over the one PB?


Two co-located PC-Ultra's ($2,300) would hold an edge over the similarly priced ($2,000-$2,300) PB12-Ultra/2 in the 20 Hz tune (one port plugged). It's a matter of physics - more port, more internal volume = higher clean output, especialy at the lowest frequenies (15-20 Hz).

Tune the PB12-Ultra/2 to 25 Hz (all ports open) and the dual PC-Ultra dominate from 15-20 Hz, but then things would get very interesting above about 22 Hz....the PB12-Ultra/2 in the native tune is wicked strong above 22 Hz.

Of course there are form factor, aesthetics, and space considerations too.

Quote:
Ed if you happen to make it back, would this be the contact over at Secrets?

Susan Johnson> sej123@sbcglobal.net

That's it, Steve - thanks for researching that. Susan handles all equipment review requests; it's just as good as talking to John himself.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

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"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."



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