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I don't see why anybody is suppourting Dual-y Disc!


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#1 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 29 2005 - 06:16 AM

First, I'm certainly not. Our players are designed for other formats, first and foremost. Even the so-called CD side is an un-CD. I do not suppourt my players being leap-froged for a questionable format. It's not even clear that the issuance of Dual-y Discs is legal due to patent conflict and a broken contract.

We should demanding DVD-A's and SA-CD's. We bought our players for those formats, not a mutant format that doesn't even have approved players. Posted Image

Why, why, why? I can't see why we should suppourt this nonsense. We killed Divx and this cretin needs the same fate, me thinks.
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#2 of 279 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted January 29 2005 - 07:28 AM

I agree. Perhaps if consumers overwhelmingly buy the DVD-A + CD discs that Warners is allowing artists to choose instead of DualDisc (REM and Seal are the ones I know of--I'm hoping Genesis will do so as well), while ignoring the DualDiscs, then this format might might die. But if all the majors are releasing stuff in that format, then the odds are slim.
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#3 of 279 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted January 29 2005 - 07:35 AM

Rachel,

There hasn't been as much fanfare over the retracted warnings, but the first was issued by the Harman Specialty Group.

I don't really classify Meridian as needing to issue a retraction, since their information showed which models might have issues and which don't.

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#4 of 279 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted January 29 2005 - 07:39 AM

I will fully embrace the format if it becomes more popular. I think it's great that in one disc we could have 5.1 video content to see on your TV and then flip it and put it in your car....It's the best of both worlds (I wish I had never purchased my single layer SACD's two years ago).
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#5 of 279 OFFLINE   Brian L

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Posted January 29 2005 - 08:26 AM

Well, as I (and many others) have said so many times, I much prefer a CD and a DVD (with Hi-Rez MC DVD-A on that DVD, thank you very much!) in the same box.

While the members of this forum are well informed on the issues surrounding DD, in the current S&V the whole sordid mess relating to the release, the warnings, the recall, etc. has been layed bare for all to see.

After reading that one issue of S&V, I can't believe anyone would want to buy one of these discs, or have any enthusiasm for the format.

If J.Q.Public did not previously know about DD, he does now, and what he has just learned from that one publication should pretty much scare him off for good.

As a side note, there is in the same issue also some discussion about Hi-Rez in general that makes for interesting reading.

But I am clearly with Rachel on this for sure....please keep producing DVD-A and SACD.....if you make them, I will buy them, other wise, fuggedaboutit.

BGL

#6 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 29 2005 - 08:47 AM

Brian, which issue is that in? I haven't read the last 2 because I'm busy with some home repairs. I want to know more, and then more also. Besides somebody else might wanna pick up a single episode. Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#7 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 29 2005 - 08:52 AM

John, I haven't seen any retractions yet and I read around on this. I don't believe in retractions. I believe in mud and being stuck in it.Posted Image Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#8 of 279 OFFLINE   John McM

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Posted January 29 2005 - 09:42 AM

most of us have just cd players, why blow $300 on a SACD player when from the looks of it, SACD is on it's way out? Dualdisc works on our players, in our cars, in our stereos, etc... I'd rather Dualdisc than SACD or DVD-A, which I can only listen to on my computer.

#9 of 279 OFFLINE   John McM

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Posted January 29 2005 - 09:45 AM

why is everyone so against Dual-Disc? I listen to music in my car and on my stereo, I can't play SACD and I'm not buying a player, and I can only listen to DVD-Audio on my DVD player. Why should the 97% of us who ONLY have cd players be punished and not be able to listen to music wherever we take it?

#10 of 279 OFFLINE   Brian L

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Posted January 29 2005 - 11:12 AM

Rachael,

Its the current issue...the cover story is a Plasma/LCD Shoot-out.

BGL

#11 of 279 OFFLINE   Tim Hoover

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Posted January 30 2005 - 04:30 AM

Quote:
most of us have just cd players

Quote:
Why should the 97% of us who ONLY have cd players be punished

Did I miss something here? The answer is to simply buy the regular CD release!!! Dualdisc is/was (supposedly) for the hi-rez and multichannel folks. Dualdisc is NOT supplanting the regular CD release, so if you only have a regular CD player, buy the CD...
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#12 of 279 OFFLINE   Joe_H

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Posted January 30 2005 - 04:53 AM

I support Dual-Disc because I don't have an SACD player, and the DVD-A version of The Downward Spiral was released on it. Hows that for a reason? Posted Image

#13 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 30 2005 - 05:18 AM

Joe, you should question if it's in your long-term good to suppourt Dual Disc over DVD-A and CD, IMO.
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#14 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 30 2005 - 05:24 AM

John McM, I say to you the same thing I said to Joe. A mutant format over a DVD-A & CD package??? Think about the future...
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#15 of 279 OFFLINE   John McM

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Posted January 30 2005 - 06:22 AM

Quote:
Did I miss something here? The answer is to simply buy the regular CD release!!! Dualdisc is/was (supposedly) for the hi-rez and multichannel folks. Dualdisc is NOT supplanting the regular CD release, so if you only have a regular CD player, buy the CD...


I thought DualDisc is a perk for CD buyers. You can listen to the cd audio side anywhere, but flip the disc over and you can listen to it in high-res on your DVD player, as well as get extra goodies like concerts, videos, etc...? There's been a few DualDisc titles (Bowie's Reality comes to mind) I've wanted to buy for that reason, thinking it's kind of a neat and convienient way to bring the best of both CD and DVD-A together.

#16 of 279 OFFLINE   Kris Deering

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Posted January 30 2005 - 09:10 AM

Your right John. I think it is absolutely stupid to buy a regular CD is you can buy a DualDisc version for the same price if not less and get a lot more bang for your buck.

DualDisc is being considered by the labels as the replacement for CD over the long term. You will be seeing more and more support for it this year. Despite what you may here on this or other forums. While we may not all like the particulars of the format, I would rather have this then nothing. And SA-CD and DVD-A have slowed WAY down in the mainstream music department. I realize that SA-CD is still common with niche audiophile labels, but I don't listen to them. I listen to mainstream, classic rock, industrial, and hard rock for the most part, and they are getting little love on either format lately.

DualDisc on the other hand is coming through for M/C playback even if it isn't as high of a resolution as I would like.

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#17 of 279 OFFLINE   Craig F

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Posted January 30 2005 - 09:39 AM

Yes, Dual-Disc was a big mistake. If the DVD Forum had ANY insight at all or cared at all what the consumer wants, they would have made the DVD spec CD compatible like SACD did. This stupid backtracking to cover their @$$ with a "CD" layer that isn't even compliant with the spec is sooo lame.

Now they are preparing to ream the consumer again with the hi-def DVD format war.

#18 of 279 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 30 2005 - 11:14 AM

Here are the problems with DualDisc that most people keep overlooking:

The CD layer is too thin to be officially spec'ed as a proper "CD". The result of that is, a) because lasers in current players are not meant to focus to the thickness that the CD layer is on a DualDisc, they made the pits larger in an attempt to compensate. Due to that, the CD layer of a Dual Disc is limited to 60 min, not 80 min like a normal CD. b) Due to the incorrect focus distance, Stereophile said that the error correction circuity in your player has to work overtime, possibly resulting in some audible errors. They likened playing a brand new DualDisc to playing a 5 year old scuffed up CD. ('Course, in my case, a 5 year old CD looks just as pristine as a brand new one, or even a 20 year old one. Posted Image But you get the idea.) c) Due to the fact that the DualDisc itself is thicker and heavier than a CD or DVD, some players have problems with playing them. And remember, just because your player can play one or two of them now, doesn't mean that playing a lot of them over time won't shorten the drive's life in the long run.

In addition to the negative articles in S&V and Stereophile, Hi Fi News in the UK also didn't have many good things to say about it. In fact, its release is indefinitely postponed in Europe due to patent issues with another kind of "flipper" disc already available in Europe.

Plus, there is another thread here on HTF where maybe 10 or 15 hardware manufacturers have expressed "concern" over playing these discs in their players. Basically, warnings that you're own your own if you play one of these and it gets jammed or damages your player.
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#19 of 279 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted January 30 2005 - 12:40 PM

Hey Kris, maybe ya'all will get more bang for the buck when ya'all's players fall and go boom.Posted Image Theoretically, hey, Dual Disc sounds like a good idea but it doesn't walk the straight and narrow format bounds. I think suppourting Dual Disc hurts the cause of proper HR-disc's, DVD-A & SA-CD, IMO.

The message we send should be, we want the formats our players are designed for, including R-E-A-L Redbook sides/layers where applicable. I want a full length DVD-A too, not a shorter-sided one that's suitable to sandwich onto a mutant CD that could have who knows what hiding digitally in it?

Again I quote the Joker, "think about the future".Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#20 of 279 OFFLINE   Kris Deering

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Posted January 30 2005 - 02:31 PM

I hear you Rachel but I think most of us have been preaching this stance for a few years now and the situation with SA-CD and DVD-A has gotten worse, not better. Universal was the most consistent with regards to releasing mainstream SA-CD titles, and their site doesn't even show any coming soon anymore. For DVD-A they just show DualDisc releases coming. Sony music has all but given up on SA-CD releases too. So who is releasing them other then niche market audiophile labels??

DVD-A has seen sparse releases from Warner. Recently they have announced some more including some REM and a Seal release. Plus they just released a Mark Knopler dual CD+DVD-A release. But that is pretty slim pickings.

So over the past 4-5 years I have been consistently buying just about every high resolution disc that appeals to me and even some that don't, but that didn't seem to matter to the labels. These markets don't even nick the surface of the CD market. And DualDisc is geared to move over that market, not the high resolution one. The high resolution market is a spec to them. The average consumer is going to be FAR more interested in DualDisc because it comes in at the same price as their CDs if not cheaper and it plays extra stuff on ALL DVD players (minus the small handful that have compatibility issues, and don't kid yourselves it is an EXTREMELLY small handful). What does SA-CD give the average consumer? Nothing but a normal CD at a higher price. And since it is usually seperated from the CD racks most don't go looking for another way to just buy another type of CD. DVD-A is the same thing. At least it offers some more content for people with DVD players. If anything they should have tried to get the same shelf space as the music DVDs so that they would get more notice.

The reason that DVD-A doesn't have a "CD Layer" is because Sony patented it. Or so I've been told. So they didn't have the option.

Believe me I want high resolution (at least 96/24) as much as all of you do, but the reality is this market is NOT the mainstream market and isn't even as mainstream as the early adopter market that DVD-V had in the beginning. DualDisc may be the best we get for awhile until the SA-CD camp and the DVD-A camp get their shit in gear. I hope that neither abandone their formats. Warner has stated that they plan on supporting DVD-A + CD packages at the artists request so that is at least something. Sony is working on SA-CD V2.0 so that is hopeful as well. I am not familiar with the new Phillips solution that John mentioned but John is one of the most reliable people I know when it comes to information so I don't doubt him for a second. So the future doesn't look too bleak.

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