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MLB Steroid scandal discussion thread (merged)


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181 replies to this topic

#1 of 182 Casey Trowbridg

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Posted December 05 2004 - 06:12 AM

There is a lot of sentiment in the hot stove thread that the steroid issue should have a thread of its own. Its a valid point since the hot stove is mainly about which free agents are signing with whom, and given that there was a seperate thread for the discussion of the Pistons/Pacers brawl.

I used the word "scandal" to describe what is going on, but honestly I am not all that surprised, in fact most of us knew that this was coming for the better part of a couple of years now.

Of course Jason Geombi has already admitted to it, and Barry Bonds is the biggest target of interest, but it will be interesting to see if anyone else is brought to the forefront.

Where does baseball go from here? How do they punish the guilty once they are found guilty? What about the individual/s that are leaking the grand jury testimony which itself is a punishable crime.

What happened this week I suspect is only the beginning.

#2 of 182 Blu

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Posted December 05 2004 - 07:32 AM

Banned from MLB for life. That would end the problem.

#3 of 182 Carl Johnson

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Posted December 05 2004 - 07:48 AM

Banned for life because a rumor was leaked that the guy took something a few years ago that might have been illegal?

#4 of 182 LewB

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Posted December 05 2004 - 08:35 AM

Giambi told the truth to the grand jury to BS'ed everyone
else.
Bonds BS'ed the grand jury as well as the public. 'I didn't know what the stuff was', Phuleese ! ? Posted Image

And Roger Maris got an asterisk ? Posted Image

I'd have to agree with the ban, but based on information that was leaked from what was supposed to be 'sealed testimony' ?

#5 of 182 Phil L

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Posted December 05 2004 - 08:47 AM

Stop testing. What these guys do with their own bodies is their own business.

#6 of 182 Joseph S

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Posted December 05 2004 - 09:31 AM

According to everything released, the players were well within their legal rights to use the "designer" steroids and HGH during the time in question as neither their use or posession were illegal. In addition, they were not violating any league policy or regulation. They took the risk be it unknown or known to themselves, they didn't violate the law or MLB rules so they deserve no punishment. As for the leaks, I'd like to see an investigation and punishment for this crime.

#7 of 182 Lew Crippen

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Posted December 05 2004 - 11:04 AM

Casey, you beat me to it with the new thread. Posted Image
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#8 of 182 Dome Vongvises

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Posted December 05 2004 - 12:07 PM

Time and infamous legend will take all things. Regardless of whether there's any legality to this or not, Giambi's and Bond's reputation will be tarnished.

#9 of 182 Casey Trowbridg

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Posted December 05 2004 - 01:18 PM

Quote:
According to everything released, the players were well within their legal rights to use the "designer" steroids and HGH during the time in question as
neither their use or posession were illegal. In addition, they were not violating any league policy or regulation. They took the risk be it unknown or
known to themselves, they didn't violate the law or MLB rules so they deserve no punishment. As for the leaks, I'd like to see an investigation and punishment
for this crime.

As much as steroids could and may damage the game, I have to agree with this. When something is made illegal we don't go back and punish all of the people that did that very thing while it was legal. Actually Actually, this would be considered unconstitutional and would probably prompt a lawsuit.

I just can't get behind the banned for life talk, as for the first thing according to the rules of baseball at the time they weren't doing anything illegal. Gaylord Perry was throwing a spitter while throwing a spitter was against the rules. You can argue that steroids are worse than a splitter but they have both been defined in the rule book.

Plus, I just don't buy that this has tarnished the game as much as Rose or the Blacksox scandal. As I said in my first post its not like this came as a big shock to the public at large.

If you're going to do anything then suspend them. But, don't strip stats as some have suggested or written about in the media, and don't ban for life.

#10 of 182 Bryan Ri

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Posted December 05 2004 - 01:20 PM

I think steroids are just the tip of the iceburg in sports.

The overwhelming majority of professional athelets are jokes. They literally get away with murder, they get away with rape, the cheat, they do steroids,and of course a laundry list of other felonies. These guys act like complete children when they don't get their way, and have the audacity to turn down 100 million dollar offers in hopes of getting 110 million dollars when fireman and policeman and teachers barely earn liveable wages.

Yes, I still watch sports and yes I will continue to do so, because there are still respectable athelets out there. I'm just becomming more and more sickened by this scum-filled group of individuals.

#11 of 182 Dome Vongvises

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Posted December 05 2004 - 01:31 PM

In spite of Chad Johnson, Terrell Owens, Rae Carruth, Jamal Lewis (and some other guys I can't think of at the moment), I like the NFL the most for the things they do. They try harder than any other league to clean up their messes.

MLB just upsets me, and I'm not talking about how boring the game is either (unless we're talking pennant races). The whole lack of a salary cap and the player's union just sickens me.

#12 of 182 Lew Crippen

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:15 PM

Quote:
The whole lack of a salary cap and the player's union just sickens me.
Why is that Dome? Making (charging) as much as the market commands is just part of our free market society. Are you for wage and price controls overall?

And as for the union—well the right of workers (even highly paid, pampered ones) is pretty well defined. Or do you just think that the owners should be able to do what they want without any controls?
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#13 of 182 Lew Crippen

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:20 PM

Quote:
According to everything released, the players were well within their legal rights to use the "designer" steroids and HGH during the time in question as
neither their use or posession were illegal. In addition, they were not violating any league policy or regulation. They took the risk be it unknown or
known to themselves, they didn't violate the law or MLB rules so they deserve no punishment.
If that were really the case (and I think that the drugs were illegal without a prescription) why would those concerned not just come out and say they were taking legal drugs? The fact that they apparently lied to the public tells me all I need to know.
¡Time is not my master!

#14 of 182 James T

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:21 PM

Quote:
Stop testing. What these guys do with their own bodies is their own business

Baseball is a team sport. You depend on all your players to contribute. If you have a team that uses steroids that's in first place vs a team that worked their ass off and remain in the basement, what are you saying?

MLB needs to do something about drug testing. I think right now, the tests they do are on a couple of weeks notice. The MLBPA does not want any random drug tests done, but that contract expires either at the end of this season or next.

Where's Jose Canseco? He gave a huge percentage of players that use steroids and everyone laughed at him.

#15 of 182 Brian Perry

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:36 PM

Quote:
According to everything released, the players were well within their legal rights to use the "designer" steroids and HGH during the time in question as neither their use or posession were illegal.

If everything was so legal, why was BALCO indicted and a grand jury called? Tax evasion?

The bottom line is most of these substances are illegal and you can't even get a doctor's prescription for many of them as they have no proven medical benefit.

For those who don't care if players use performance-enhancing drugs, do you feel the same way about the Olympics? If not, why?

#16 of 182 Chris

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:46 PM

First, while I hear the idea "it wasn't illegal before" baseballs bylines clearly define that the players have an obligation to their contract to represent both the "spirit of the game in all public relations matters" and "both team and player are obligated to maintain the condition of the players health".. some would argue that "performance enhancing drugs" are in effect, a violation of both, they are a bad PR move to the public, and they do not maintain the health of the athlete; both are violations of the last player union-ownership contract.

Second, the talk about "well, it's fair" I think people love to see some records fall. But others are becoming damn near impossible as players, pumped up, are making life on pitchers hell. An infield ground out is now a seeing eye single; let alone the # of HRs. More power behind the bat is advantageous. Meanwhile, steroids in all their forms tend to lower muscle flexibility, at least in all studies BALCO and others have done. Not bad if your motion is fluid and forward, but a bitch of a problem if you're trying to throw a slider or a curveball. Thus, you don't see a lot of pitchers looking like muscle men.. Greg Maddux anyone?

Anything that considerably unbalances the playing field to put players at a disadvantage upsets the balance of the game. (IMHO).

Finally, to this point:

Quote:
Why is that Dome? Making (charging) as much as the market commands is just part of our free market society. Are you for wage and price controls overall?

And as for the union—well the right of workers (even highly paid, pampered ones) is pretty well defined. Or do you just think that the owners should be able to do what they want without any controls?

Actually, this is a false argument. MLB, along with most sports, are provided with an exemption to corporate monopoly status and are a self-competing enterprise. That is to say, MLB has a vested interest in all product assessed at all locations. By that definition, MLB could (although they haven't pulled it off in negotiations) set a standard of earning wages. This is the same as a COSTCO or a Sam's Club or whatever saying "nationally, managers make X, etc." The reason for this is because the enterprise protects itself (hell, ask Baltimore Oriole ownership about their kickbacks regarding DC Nationals). Just as Pizza Hut, Inc. will make sure that you don't have two pizza huts on the same city block, MLB acts as an arbitrator for all franchises. As such, player negotiations with MLB aren't a matter of MLB saying "you can't earn more then X" but saying "for the good of the product, all should be close to standard" This is the argument that NFL used in order to institute it's cap as well as the NBA. By saying that the needs of the product come first, the NFL was able to effectively note that the enterprise requires all franchises have at least an opportunity for success.

The workers do have a right to unionize, of course, and they have a powerful union. By the same token, the owners have just as much right to refuse to meet their demands, as their is no onus on them to fold everytime Posted Image
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#17 of 182 Phil L

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:56 PM

Quote:
First, while I hear the idea "it wasn't illegal before" baseballs bylines clearly define that the players have an obligation to their contract to represent both the "spirit of the game in all public relations matters" and "both team and player are obligated to maintain the condition of the players health".. some would argue that "performance enhancing drugs" are in effect, a violation of both


And one could argue that *not* taking steroids is a violation of the "first-class conditioning" clause.

#18 of 182 Bryan Ri

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Posted December 05 2004 - 03:57 PM

Quote:
If that were really the case (and I think that the drugs were illegal without a prescription) why would those concerned not just come out and say they were taking legal drugs? The fact that they apparently lied to the public tells me all I need to know


Great point Lew.

A lot of these guys are spoiled brats who have been ushered around like royalty throughout their professional careers, and don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Why no response from Giambi? Why no response from Bonds other than a lawyer's comments? Why can't the most powerful union in the country act responsibly?

#19 of 182 Bryan Ri

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Posted December 05 2004 - 04:00 PM

As far as steroids being legal in MLB or not, what about them being flat out against the law?

#20 of 182 MikeH1

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Posted December 05 2004 - 04:28 PM

Quote:
Why is that Dome? Making (charging) as much as the market commands is just part of our free market society. Are you for wage and price controls overall?

I'll use the NHL as an example instead of MLB.

Um because NHL ticket prices are out of control now? Or let me guess - you can afford to go to every second home game. Remember, this league and game was built for the fans, its a little different than a "typical free market society business".

I would appreciate a salary cap so that the average wage earning Joe (like me) can go and see a hockey game and its not just the rich folk that can afford to go. And besides, the higher the NHL wages go, the more Americanized the game and the league gets to have to pay these wages. So, here we are with no hockey.

The next logical step is for the stupid lawsuits to start.


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