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SVS PB10-ISD Subwoofer Test & Review


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122 replies to this topic

#41 of 123 Edward J M

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Posted October 12 2004 - 06:37 AM

Quote:
Robb & Ed, what are the dimensions of your rooms (as measure in width, depth & height)?


18' deep x 12' wide x 8' high with an open stairwell and a small attached foyer leading to a powder room and an office. I would call it 2000 ft3 and fairly "closed". The distance to the subwoofer is about 11-12 feet.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#42 of 123 Robb Roy

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Posted October 12 2004 - 06:46 AM

I should have mentioned I have one doorway to the rest of the house (doorway, no door) and 9 to 11 feet from the sub depending on where you sit on the couch. The measurement I took for Darla was at the 11 foot position.

-Robb

#43 of 123 Zack_R

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Posted October 12 2004 - 12:41 PM

Quote:
At 2 meters outside, you can rotate the subwoofer in any orientation (except with the woofer and port firing into the dirt) and it won't measureably affect the data. Anyone who ground planes regularly will support this.


Thanks, Ed. I kinda figured this would be the case. Same result for me inside.

My BIC amp for my BIC sub died about 3 months ago and I've been contemplating what to do about it. I may have to pick up one of these babies for family room duties!

#44 of 123 Kevin C Brown

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Posted October 12 2004 - 01:21 PM

Rob- Just curious, what is your idea for having a PB10-ISD plus a PB12-Ultra/2?

Quote:
BTW, if you are in the Phoenix area, I plan to hold a get together on the afternoon of the 23rd (probably) where we can listen to a PB12-Ultra/2, a PB10-ISD, and drink some beer with fellow enthusiasts.

Drats. I live in California... Posted Image
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#45 of 123 Pete_M3

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Posted October 12 2004 - 01:21 PM

I saw this sub at the HTF event in LA. Pretty impressive for a 10. Although it's fairly compact, it's pretty deep for a 10-inch: 15" wide x 18" high x 21" deep (5670 cubic inches (exterior)).

In comparison, the STF-2 is 14" wide x 19" high x 18" deep (assuming the floor spikes are 1-inch high, the box exterior is 4536 cubic inches). The 25 percent extra cabinet volume may explain some of the difference in response characteristics between these subs.

Although the extra three inches in depth may not sound like much, it may make a difference if you are trying to not stick out past a wall unit or audio cabinet. The finish options may help with the WAF though.

#46 of 123 Robb Roy

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Posted October 12 2004 - 01:33 PM

Kevin,

The idea behind the PB10 is for a 2 channel system in the workout room. Before putting it there, however, I thought people would like to hear them side by side (ya' gotta' admit -- the opportunity to hear one of SVS' best offerings next to their cheapest/newest offering is interesting in its own right).

Quote:
Drats. I live in California...


Being a transplanted Californian, that's not something I hear very often.

Pete, I think it's safe to say both companies take advantage of physics with regard to enclosure size.

-Robb

#47 of 123 frank manrique

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Posted October 12 2004 - 06:12 PM

quote:
__________________________________________________ _______

I didn't have a chance to check out that AVS thread, and I'm not sure who nightietrain is?
__________________________________________________ _______

Ed,

...if you haven't ran into "nightrain" yet consider yourself very lucky!...

-THTS

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#48 of 123 Edward J M

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Posted October 12 2004 - 10:21 PM

Quote:
My BIC amp for my BIC sub died about 3 months ago and I've been contemplating what to do about it. I may have to pick up one of these babies for family room duties!

Not a bad idea, Zack - big improvement for sure. Then you can use the BIC for target practice; a few of my old products have bought the farm in that manner - the dust cap is 10X. Posted Image

Quote:
The 25 percent extra cabinet volume may explain some of the difference in response characteristics between these subs.

Pete - good call; the rectangular box config allows for more cabinet volume and a longer port. The tune point can be set lower and efficiency is greater, requiring less EQ to obtain a flat response down to the tuning frequency. Frankly, I'd like to see larger models spring from this design platform.

Finally, anyone looking to draw comparisons between the PB10-ISD and other products needs to look at both the dynamic compression limits and the distortion limited output at each frequency, particularly the bottom octave.

How loud a sub can play on a transient, and how clean that output is, are two radically different things. The closer the distortion limited output gets to the dynamic compression limit, the cleaner the subwoofer will sound near its operating limits.

And remember, the dB scale is log10. When you are looking at differences in distortion limited output of 10, 15, 20 dB in the bottom octave - that is simply an astronomical (orders of magnitude) difference in clean output.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
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www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#49 of 123 ScottCarr

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Posted October 12 2004 - 11:56 PM

Last night I spent some time looking over some posts by Nightrain. This person should take up employment as a master debater. the way he "flip flops" and bounces from one subject to the next reminded me of a person from Massachusetts. If I say the words "I have a plan" I would have been convinced it was that person.

This person obviously has a mission to badger SvS. He has stated he owned 4 SvS subs and they all horrible but yet he has considered buying another SvS in the future. He apparently has connections in the "audio field". I was not able to determine if this person has had any actual first hand knowledge on SvS other than they consider SvS owner shills. The person also claims they would never buy a sub build in a garage. Uhmmm, a couple of very tiny computer companies started out that way, namely HP, Microsoft, Linux and I am sure many others.

This person picks apart any review of an SvS product yet has no data or information to back up their doubts and accusations. Many people has nicely asked them for amplifying information yet they chose to ignore such requests. Many of this persons posts (nearly all) have been edited as if they can't make up their mind.

This person tries to come across as an EXPERT yet I think it was their very first post on the other forum asking how to set up a subwoofer gain. I found that interesting since that post was roughly 6 months ago.

This person provides no technical information, advice or measurable shared knowledge to the forum. They just skirt around any concrete information, technical data, and common decency.

My person feelings is this person could be a Craig or Ed if given the right tools. But unfortuantely they have chosen other avenues to become recognized. Their writings are relatively articulate but with such condescension at the same time

#50 of 123 SVS-Ron

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Posted October 13 2004 - 02:18 AM

Scott,

We figure that if you have sold as many subwoofers as we have, collecting a few "barnacles" along the way is just the cost of doing business in this keyboard enabled world.

People with NO credibility, serious (or just minor) mental problems, and nothing but malice in their hearts can peck out a note like everyone else. I think it's quite clear that a couple guys have a "thing" for SVS when it comes to slander. Fortunately the same folks are SO steeped in the very propaganda they hope to further that their voices tend to have the opposite effect they intend (or so I believe). If a lunatic (even a well spoken one) continues baseless attacks, it's a thing that just seems to make folks even more curious than ever to check us out.

At one time we thought "Nightietrain" just one of those statistical certainties we wanted to go away. Now our marketing department is thinking of sending him a monthly check. You almost feel you would have to invent a nutcase like this if he wasn't already out there. I know if I had him as a spokesman FOR our brand, I'd be working overtime to find a way to separate us from him. Whatever, he's the competition's burden, not ours. Customers "get" him, and have, for a long time now.

For the record, one of the SVS's he "owned" was said to be a "secondhand" PC-Ultra (they are always, second hand, curiosly with no effort to transfer the warranty or let us know who the seller was). The PC-Ultra had been shipping for about a week when he reported that in one forum. Well within the period we would have just had returned a sub from an actual customer that was less than thrilled with his SVS.

Needless to say Nightrain (AKA "Caligari" on Audio Review and "Nick R" here. He has other pseudonyms at E-Coustics and still other places) never had a PC-Ultra, he probably never even heard or SAW one. I wonder if he's seen or heard ANY SVS. When you have to invent ownership to criticize an OEM, you have to wonder about the first point I made above about mental stability.

One thing is certain. No one had a problem with any of Ed Mullen's other reviews. He'd be touted as a combination of Jesus, Budda, and Allah by the same guys attacking his results now... if only he'd found other brands superior.

Well there is one other thing certain. If our own data (held very closely) ever indicated a HINT of bias, or inflation in that reported by Mr. Mullen, you can be sure he'd no longer be in consideration for review product from SVS. We don't need nor will we ever want "toadies". You do like to see scientifically based third parties without vested interests corroborate your own data though, and in this case Ed's done just that.

Robb, you had better stop babying that PB10-ISD or I'll think better of having loaned you that one. Oh, and you and Ed are not alone... "there is another". If there could be a guy as thorough and meticulous about testing as Ed it's one of the guys Tom suggested over at the Sound and Vision Forum. I don't know him well but you have to have a fairly firm grasp of your anatomy to send a sub to a guy with a handle of "Irate Guy" (FKA "Crazy Old Fart"). We know we're in for "the treatment" when we saw this setup with the slate gray PB10-ISD already set in the corner.

We sure would have liked to have send out our subs for early beta test bashers but parts just weren't available. There are still a few folks on board to write up reviews but their's will be based on the first production subs off our Ohio assembly line. The ones Ed, Rob and "COF" have are full production spec parts in every respect but they are literally a few of many soon to come.

Pete, for sure the added enclosure space is one big factor. If you saw the competing product's driver side by side with the PB10-ISD's you would quickly know there's just a bit more to it than that ;^) Don't know if Ed or anyone has shots showing this posted any place but it's only a matter of time before you see them I'm sure.

Ron

#51 of 123 Robb Roy

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Posted October 13 2004 - 03:39 AM

Ron,

With movies I've only done one quick demo, but since when is "Darla Tapping" at -5 from reference "babying"?

As you're being nice enough to loan me a Rane for the meet, I spent some time EQing the PB10 yesterday (still have a couple of small imperfections, but pretty close). After that I played DMB's (a band I didn't want to like, but they just keep growing on me) Live in Chicago. So far, for music only (which is what the system it will eventually go in is for) I really could live with this as a replacement for the PB12-Ultra/2 -- it's coming through just as accurately. I don't care if I have to pay for one of these with scotch, cigars, beer, *and* cash, but you'll only get this one back if you send another.

-Robb

#52 of 123 Scott Goldsmith

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Posted October 13 2004 - 09:51 AM

Why can't this PB10 just suck? Posted Image All this good news is making it really hard on my mind and wallet :P)

#53 of 123 Pete_M3

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Posted October 13 2004 - 10:07 AM

Quote:
Pete - good call; the rectangular box config allows for more cabinet volume and a longer port. The tune point can be set lower and efficiency is greater, requiring less EQ to obtain a flat response down to the tuning frequency. Frankly, I'd like to see larger models spring from this design platform.


Cabinet size is always a tradeoff. Giant cabinets can be tuned lower and are good for bachelors or those with plenty of space in their listening rooms. Small cabinets give up some efficiency, but work better with less-than-understanding wives and smaller rooms.

Plenty of subs are available across the size spectrum. For example, a sealed Rocket UFW-10 is on the small end, roughly a 13 inch cube, and the PB-10 is towards the other end. Just don't buy the PB-10 thinking you are getting a diminutive cabinet just because it's "only" a 10-inch.

#54 of 123 SVS-Ron

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Posted October 13 2004 - 10:29 AM

"Just don't buy the PB-10 thinking you are getting a diminutive cabinet just because it's "only" a 10-inch.

Right. It's pretty much halfway between the size of an STF-2 and your STF-3/Outlaw unit. I wouldn't class any of the three of those as "diminutive" of course, but you are dead on regarding "giant" and "small". Each has tradeoffs. Naturally we see the PB10-ISD in this review as neither. We shot for "not too big" (visually) and "not too small" (for optimal performance).

Again though, the somewhat larger relative size of our cabinet (vis a vis some other $400 class subs) is only one of several aspects of its exceptional performance. Given all the pre-orders it's pretty clear the mid-sized PB10-ISD is being tollerated by guys with wives all over the world fortunately (though I must hasten to add a few women have already pre-ordered too so our sense of style must not be too far off ;^). And in terms of style size itself is only one aspect folks consider. Colors, the way the cabinet looks, fabric used, even the ratio of the dimensions of the cabinet all have their part to play.

Scott,

Sorry, our mission is to create enough products you'll lust after that you really have no money left, and no time, since you will work two jobs to support your habit. See Frank M. for advice on adiction.

Robb,

Got it, "you can have this sub when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"?? Something like that? Ed's review was a bit more detailed than that so I hope you are sharpening your pencil 8^)!

Ron

#55 of 123 ScottCarr

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Posted October 13 2004 - 11:48 AM

Scott

I am right there with you.

Here I am sitting here looking and innocently reading all the raves about the PB10 and looking at b stock rockets.

here I am trying to spend someone elses money but that aint good enough. I called Sean at AV123 and he mentions a set of b stock 750 signatures biwired (one has some cosemteic damage) but the price is incredible. Then I hear from Erik. I end up spending X amount of ddollars on myself while shopping for someone else. Yeah I screwed him out of a set of rockets. hehehehe. tomorrow the order for dual Pb10 wiil be place.

I really have to stop shopping for other people and just concentrate on myself....at this rate his HT will never have speakers

#56 of 123 steve nn

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Posted October 13 2004 - 12:01 PM

Right. It's pretty much halfway between the size of an STF-2 and your STF-3/Outlaw unit. I wouldn't class any of the three of those as "diminutive" of course but you are dead on "giant" and "small". Each has tradeoffs. Naturally we see the PB10-ISD in this review as neither. We shot for "not too big" (visually) and "not too small" (for optimal performance).
__________________________________________________ _____

Sure is nice to read such a good conversation regarding the PB10-ISD. Ron couldn't it be said that the PB10-ISD is (SVS's idea) of a sub done in moderation> size, $$ and 10"driver, but it's performance is any thing but moderate? (Thats my view anyway) From the numbers I see in Ed's review, I can think of many subs that would $$cost allot more but deliver much less. The PB10-ISD really looks like a winner from any angle you look at it imo.

Not to big not to small. I'm soldPosted Image

#57 of 123 Robb Roy

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Posted October 13 2004 - 02:15 PM

Quote:
...when you pry it from my cold dead fingers


I'm definitely not saying that. You're ex-military and I'm a software programmer. If you tried to arrange such a condition, my money's on you. (In case that wasn't clear for the casual reader, that was a joke.) I *am* saying I'll do whatever necessary to keep this baby!

I plan to get to a couple of movie demos tonight. After checking email I went to do so, but my wife started watching "Femme Fatale" on HBO and gave me the kind of look any smart husband knows. So now I'm sitting on the back patio with a cigar, the laptop, a cold beer, and glancing inside for a certain pool table scene before doing some demos tonight. How awesome is my wife? She says she'll get me if I miss it.

-Robb

#58 of 123 Edward J M

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Posted October 13 2004 - 02:32 PM

Quote:
You're ex-military


Ron freely admits any friendly soldiers stationed behind him on the battle field were always far safer than those unfortunate enough to find themselves in front of him. I think they let him keep a Daisy air rifle upon honorable discharge, but that's the extent of it. Military intelligence was Ron's forte, so I'm thinking this smack down might be pretty close...... Posted Image
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#59 of 123 Robb Roy

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Posted October 13 2004 - 04:02 PM

OK, enough of the "babying". These numbers certainly don't have Ed's detail, but I ran through a few demo scenes tonight. All these are my sorry butt sitting in my favorite chair holding a Radio Shack RS meter set to C weighting fast.

Blade at -5 from reference:
Club scene held a pretty constant 98 dB.
The first footstep came in at 102 dB.

Gladiator (DTS) at -10 from reference:
Opening battle had numerous low 100s dB, and a bunch of those were shaking the couch on my concrete slab and block construction telling me they were quite deep.

Independence Day at -5 from reference:
Opening fly over the moon hit 104 dB.

Jurassic Park 3 (DTS) at -5 from reference:
Footsteps in opening went from 99 to 103 dB.
Plane crash to dino fight had numerous low frequency effects from the high 90s all the way up to 107 dB! 107 dB from a single 10" driver in a 3,400 cubic foot room, folks!

One word: Scary. But in a good way. Now my wife wants to watch an episode of DS9, and my ears need the break.

-Robb

#60 of 123 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted October 13 2004 - 05:22 PM

>>>Ron,

With movies I've only done one quick demo, but since when is "Darla Tapping" at -5 from reference "babying"?<<<

Part of the R/D testing for this model was running that scene at 15dB over reference(bass calibrated 15dB hot for this test...system running at reference). Of course at a given output level...the PB10 will simply stop getting louder...it isn't going to produce 136dB..Posted Image. IIRC, our dynamic compression tests showed the PB10 remaining very linear up to 102-103dB...with some compression showing at 105dB(where we stopped). Remember though, that is outside, measured at 2m. In a average size room, corner loaded...you'll be in the 106-112dB range without any compression at all.

For a real fun demo...we run the same Nemo scene with a pair of stacked B12-plus/4 subs I have in my corner...


Tom V.
SVS


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