Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

SVS PB10-ISD Subwoofer Test & Review


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
122 replies to this topic

#1 of 123 OFFLINE   Edward J M

Edward J M

    Screenwriter



  • 2,031 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2002

Posted October 09 2004 - 05:42 AM

The SVS PB10-ISD Subwoofer Review is posted at Secrets of Home Theater and Hi-Fidelity.

We can hold a discussion thread here, just like we normally would. I'd like to personally thank John E. Johnson for the opportunity to post a subwoofer review at Secrets.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#2 of 123 OFFLINE   Scott Goldsmith

Scott Goldsmith

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 209 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 19 2002

Posted October 09 2004 - 06:12 AM

GREAT review Ed, that little bugger sounds like a winner in that $400 class for sure!! Apartment dwellers will eat this sub up I am sure. I'm very tempted to get one for my bedroom or something, just too bad ass to pass up Posted Image You never cease to amaze me with your review and detail.

I need to PM you on a seperate question regarding the PB12-Ultra/2 and the ss setting.

#3 of 123 OFFLINE   John E. Johnson

John E. Johnson

    Auditioning



  • 3 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 19 2004

Posted October 09 2004 - 06:39 AM

Ed jumped the gun a bit. The PB10 review is not published yet, since I am in the middle of editing it. It will be made live on Monday.

John Johnson
Editor - Secrets

#4 of 123 OFFLINE   Edward J M

Edward J M

    Screenwriter



  • 2,031 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2002

Posted October 09 2004 - 06:47 AM

Apologies, John. I didn't realize the review was still being finalized. Scott; you got a "Secret" peek - lucky dog. The rest of you people will have to wait another 48 hours. Sorry for the teaser - an honest mistake! :b

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#5 of 123 OFFLINE   ScottCHI

ScottCHI

    Screenwriter



  • 1,292 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 21 2004

Posted October 09 2004 - 06:59 AM

i saw it too!

Posted Image
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#6 of 123 OFFLINE   David Bikeman

David Bikeman

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 164 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 15 2004

Posted October 09 2004 - 07:32 AM

Nice write-up Ed. I'm trying to think of a reason to consider the Hsu but you've made it very difficult. Posted Image Posted Image

David

#7 of 123 OFFLINE   frank manrique

frank manrique

    Supporting Actor



  • 798 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 15 1999

Posted October 09 2004 - 08:09 AM

Ed,

Congratulations! You have made the major league. Posted Image
Am looking forward to read your take on the little guy... Posted Image

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

#8 of 123 OFFLINE   Yung

Yung

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 224 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 2004

Posted October 10 2004 - 12:59 PM

Ed,

Great review. The review seems to be posted at Secrets now...1 day early!

http://www.hometheat....r-10-2004.html

#9 of 123 OFFLINE   steve nn

steve nn

    Screenwriter



  • 2,420 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 12 2002

Posted October 10 2004 - 02:21 PM

Congratulations Ed. It seems a bit odd to read your Review on over at Secrets, but thats where it really belongs and Much deserved. Great work as expectedPosted Image

#10 of 123 OFFLINE   Eric Hargrove

Eric Hargrove

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 153 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 24 2001

Posted October 10 2004 - 02:38 PM

Outstanding write up as usual Ed!Posted Image That it unheard of output for a $400 dollar subwoofer. Makes me think about purchasing one and with dual Ultras at this point, I really don't need one. I think if I could figure out how to cross it over, it would outstanding coupled with my Lsi7' for a 2 channel setup. Can you or Ron or Tom tell me how it compares to a 25/31 Pci?

#11 of 123 OFFLINE   JackRI

JackRI

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 59 posts
  • Join Date: May 17 2004

Posted October 10 2004 - 02:48 PM

Ed,

I always appreciate your plain language reviews that even non-techies like me can understand, and this one is no exception. Another great job. Thanks.
Jack

#12 of 123 OFFLINE   frank manrique

frank manrique

    Supporting Actor



  • 798 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 15 1999

Posted October 10 2004 - 07:19 PM

Well Ed...what can I say but...told you so! Posted Image What an incredible review of a product I predicted would set the entire subwoofer manufacturing community on fire! Ed, you're 'da man! Posted Image

Oh, by the way...that was kettle *drums* in reference to the Tchaikovsky Symphony #6 comments you made in the subjective section of your review, right?

Also, am glad you enjoy listening to, and use acoustic instruments music--in progressive jazz form, no less!--from master musicians Dave Brubeck, Eugene Wright, Paul Desmond, and Joe Morello for audio reviewing purposes; a very telling and valuable tool!... Posted Image

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

#13 of 123 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

Kevin C Brown

    Producer



  • 5,713 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 03 2000

Posted October 10 2004 - 07:45 PM

Very nice Ed! Posted Image Congrats on getting published by Secrets.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#14 of 123 OFFLINE   Edward J M

Edward J M

    Screenwriter



  • 2,031 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2002

Posted October 10 2004 - 10:36 PM

Glad to see the review hotlink went live a bit early. Boy, you guys are sure on the ball! Posted Image

I don't see it linked on the Secrets home page yet (a sure sign it is final), so I'm hoping no one jumped the gun again. Regardless, I'll still address comments posted here.

Quote:
It seems a bit odd to read your Review on over at Secrets, but thats where it really belongs and Much deserved. Great work as expected


Thanks, Steve/Kevin. John E. Johnson has been incredibly gracious in providing me with this opportunity, and I think Secrets offers formatting, editing, and presentation capabilities that far exceed what is available to me here at HTF. In that respect, I think it's a much better looking report than anything else I've previously done.

Quote:
I think if I could figure out how to cross it over, it would outstanding coupled with my Lsi7' for a 2 channel setup.

The LSi-7 has earned a permanent spot in my system for both 2 channel and HT duties. The PB10-ISD integrates well with them, as can be seen from the in-room FR. I'm using a 3803 as a pre/pro, and M200 monoblocks across the front stage for amplification.

Quote:
That it unheard of output for a $400 dollar subwoofer.

Yes, it certainly is. I had to triple check my set-up and data because I couldn't believe the display. Two PB10-ISDs for $800 would certainly give a $900 PB12-ISD/2 in the 20 Hz tune a run for the money.

Quote:
Can you or Ron or Tom tell me how it compares to a 25/31 Pci?

The PB10-ISD will certainly play deeper, getting down into the high teens. Above 25 Hz, I would expect the 25-31PCi to start exhibiting a 3.0 dB output advantage.

Quote:
Well Ed...what can I say but...told you so! I predicted (the PB10-ISD) would set the entire subwoofer manufacturing community on fire!

Oh, by the way...that was kettle *drums* in reference to the Tchaikovsky Symphony #6 comments you made in the subjective section of your review, right?

Jack/Frank - thanks for the props. Frank - your prediction about how this subwoofer performs was indeed correct - no, you da man. And yes, it's kettle drums; I just use "kettle" as short hand.

Quote:
Also, am glad you enjoy listening to, and use acoustic instruments music--in progressive jazz form, no less!--from master musicians Dave Brubeck, Eugene White, Paul Desmond, and Joe Morello for audio reviewing purposes; a very telling and valuable tool!...

I'm glad you appreciate the cross section of music I included in the review. Acoustic instruments are the best for evaluating the subjective qualities of a subwoofer, because we can compare to live music. I've certainly been to my share of night clubs and concerts over the years. Posted Image
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#15 of 123 OFFLINE   Robb Roy

Robb Roy

    Supporting Actor



  • 711 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 15 2002

Posted October 11 2004 - 01:21 AM

The one disadvantage I can think of with having the review at Secrets is that if you needed to change anything, it would be more difficult. Then again, this is probably your most bullet-proof review to date, so I can't imagine needing to change anything.

-Robb

#16 of 123 OFFLINE   SVS-Ron

SVS-Ron

    Screenwriter



  • 1,074 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 02 2001

Posted October 11 2004 - 05:08 AM

Ed,

Wow. Thanks very much for the extraordinary job on reviewing our subwoofer. You got one of the few early units to go out and it's clear we chose wisely there.

I must say I've never seen a review (either in print mags or on the web) done with more care and professionalism.

All of us at SVS appreciate you taking so much time to do such a thorough job.

Ron Stimpson
Director, Sales and Marketing
SV Subwoofers

#17 of 123 OFFLINE   John E. Johnson

John E. Johnson

    Auditioning



  • 3 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 19 2004

Posted October 11 2004 - 05:28 AM

Quote -

"The one disadvantage I can think of with having the review at Secrets is that if you needed to change anything, it would be more difficult. Then again, this is probably your most bullet-proof review to date, so I can't imagine needing to change anything."

Actually, Ed did make some corrections to the semi-final draft. We can edit out mistakes or insert new info if needed just like you can here on the forum. It is the printed magazines that have a problem making corrections.

JEJ - Secrets Editor

#18 of 123 OFFLINE   Robb Roy

Robb Roy

    Supporting Actor



  • 711 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 15 2002

Posted October 11 2004 - 05:39 AM

John,

Glad to see you're taking advantage of the medium! I wasn't sure if your publication policies allowed for the flexibility (obviously it does).

-Robb

#19 of 123 OFFLINE   Edward J M

Edward J M

    Screenwriter



  • 2,031 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 22 2002

Posted October 11 2004 - 06:21 AM

Quote:
Actually, Ed did make some corrections to the semi-final draft. We can edit out mistakes or insert new info if needed just like you can here on the forum. It is the printed magazines that have a problem making corrections.


Actually, a HTF forum member just pointed out (in a PM) that I made a reference to disabling the low pass filter on the FR sweeps, when the PB10-ISD has no such feature. This was an oversight on my part and carry-over verbage (boiler plate) from a previous subwoofer review. It took John about 1 minute from receiving my email to correcting the report - now that's great response time! Posted Image

I received some other PMs about the disparity between the dynamic compression levels on the FR sweeps vs. the THD limits at 20 and 22 Hz.

I am using different test signals for the FR vs. THD. The FR is measured with the TrueRTA QuickSweep which takes around 500-750 ms (I can ask John Murphy the exact time if anyone wants). I think it can be successfully argued that this type of sweep better represents actual music and movie transients with respect to measuring dynamic compression.

Other testers (like SVS R/D) use a somewhat slower sweep like LMS. While LMS is certainly slower than QuickSweep, it by no means approaches steady state. It is my understanding that SVS R/D reached dynamic compression on the LMS sweep about the same point I did - around 104 dB. This is prima facie evidence that although LMS is slower than Quick Sweep, it is no more stringent with respect to revealing dynamic compression.

For THD, I use strictly straight sines. According to designer Tom V, the PB10-ISD amp will react far differently to steady sines than it will to transients. The amp will start to motorboat on sines long before it limits out in a transient. Thus the disparity between the level of the dynamic compression FR sweep, and the THD values at 20 and 22 Hz.

FWIW, SVS R/D also uses steady sines to measure THD. I do know that other testers (Nousaine, Yates) use some type of ramped sine burst to measure THD. They might indeed measure a somewhat higher value than I would on the same subwoofer at the lowest frequencies since the amp might not limit out with a ramped burst as it does with a continuous sine. In this respect, steady sines would be a more conservative means of measurement.

Also, there is nothing saying a given subwoofer cannot play louder than its 10% distortion limit at a given frequency. I'm not suggesting this is a positive characteristic, I'm just saying it's certainly possible. The STF-2 is a perfect example of this; it exhibited dynamic compression at 102-103 dB in the 25-40 Hz bandwidth, but its 10% distortion output at 25 Hz was 92 dB. I didn't measure the distortion at 25 Hz @ 102 dB, but it most certainly would be much greater than 10% (assuming the amp didn't limit out first).

Really, from a dynamic compression and bandwidth linearity standpoint, a perfect subwoofer would have the same distortion limited output across its entire operating bandwidth, and this would ALSO represent its dynamic compression limit. The PB10-ISD almost perfectly exhibits this trait at 25 Hz and above. It falls short at 20-22 Hz, but its performance there is still exceptional.

Regardless, I test every sub in the same manner, so if there is any inherent bias in this methodology, it is applied equally to all products and thus ceases to become a variable in any comparisons. The most important thing to me is generating repeatable test data with consistently applied methodology under the same test conditions for every product tested. Then valid comparisons can be drawn.

I switched to ground plane testing after the PB12-ISD vs. the STF-3 review, in which Dr. Poh Ser Hsu suggested that room modes can affect THD values to a significant extent. If I ever get the chance to ground plane both of those subwoofers again, I'll update that report with the new data, too. Since then, the PB2-Ultra, STF-2, and PB10-ISD were all tested ground plane under the same conditions and with the same methodology. And the same will hold true for all subs tested in the future.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#20 of 123 OFFLINE   Aaron Waters

Aaron Waters

    Extra



  • 21 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 23 2004

Posted October 11 2004 - 06:30 AM

Ed,

thank YOU for all of the information you bring to this forum as well as the in_depth_analysis of superb products from HSU and SVS. you're a very informative resource here.

Posted Image Posted Image


Back to Speakers, Subwoofers & Headphones



Forum Nav Content I Follow