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Onkyo DV-SP1000 vs Apex AD7701


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34 replies to this topic

#1 of 35 MannyE

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Posted October 02 2004 - 06:06 AM

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on one of these universal players, but I have not yet been able to see it in action, nor any of the other cheaper offerings from Pioneer or Apex.

My hesitation stems from the fact that the Hi-Def thing is coming down the barrel and I would hate to blow a grand or more on a player and then get stuck missing features I would like for years. For example...I ran out and bought the first DVD player I could get my hands on (Sony DVP-S300) and have spent the last umpteen years without DTS decoding. But I can't and won't go out and spend more money just to have one feature. (OK...now there's no excuse not to get a Cyberhome for 40 bucks...but you know what I mean).

My current thinking is to go with something inexpensive like the Apex universal player until the Hi-Def thing settles and Hi-Def universal players are on the shelf.

If any of you are currently using the Apex player, would you recommend it as a stop-gap measure for a couple of years? How do you like the sound/video quality?
Ni!!

#2 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted October 02 2004 - 06:20 AM

Wow. I didn't even know Apex shot this high up. I usually see them in Walmart and that's about it. I guess learned something new today.

But you're talking about a $350 Apex player vs. a $2000 juggernaut. I'm here to tell you that the Onkyo is going to smoke it into the ground without missing a beat. If you have the money, get the Onkyo and haggle and bargain hard!


Honestly, the Onkyo is already kicking lots of arse.

I'd be willing to bet just about anything that it's going to be a very tough player to beat.

The MSRP is 2 grand, but if you can haggle and search, I've been hearing some nice legit deals going down.

In a worse case scenario, if you buy the Onkyo, you're set for many years anyways, especially on the audio side. You won't have to think about that ever again, practically.

If you have the money, I'd really consider this Onkyo unit. I think I like it better even then the Denon 3910, although it's probably out of my budget.

The next two things down the ladder I see, besides the Onkyo, that I would consider are the Denon 3910 and the ever almighty Pioneer 59avi, which I know people have been getting for under a grand all over the place. Too bad I can't find a Pioneer dealer anywhere near me. I'd say to you, if you want the best and want to feel good about yourself, and not have buyer's guilt, get a Pioneer 59avi.


You might want to look at that huge Integra 10.5 thread at the AVS DVD forums, because the Onkyo 1000 is being mentioned a lot since it's essentially the same player as the Integra 10.5.

Here ya go:http://www.avsforum.....hreadid=347804

Just pay attention to maybe the last several pages, because everyone started chiming in with the Onkyo unit and working from there.

I believe Kris Deering and his crew are getting ready to have their next round on the shootouts ready in the next couple of weeks. The Onkyo will be in it, I think. The Integra 10.5, Denon 3910, Yamaha s1500, and a slew of others are supposed to be in it as well.

If you can just hold out a wee bit longer, you'll have something concrete. I feel exactly the way you do, but I want some high rez lovin' and my faithful Zenith 318's quirks, especially layer change, are beginning to annoy me. Posted Image

http://www.hometheat...i.com/main.html Keep a close eye on this site over the next few weeks. If you look up the older shootouts, you'll see that the Pioneer 59avi smoked all the tests. It's an amazing player, and I think it's a steal at a grand or less. I WISH I could find one!

I'm not buying until this next shootout comes forth. And even then, I still need to get some stats on the Yamaha s2500...

#3 of 35 MannyE

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Posted October 02 2004 - 07:13 AM

Eric,

Thanks a lot for the info! I have some reading to do.

I figure that if one player can do the job of three or four and get me more room on my rack, then it is worth the cash, especially since I am going to be upgrading to FP for movies this coming year. That's why I don't mind blowing a big wad on the player, I need the best output I can get if I am going to be going to 100 inches.

But the problem is that with all the HD stuff probably coming out at the next CES, I would be crushed if a comprable unit to the Onkyo hits the market right after I blew my player budget, which is what happened back in 94 or 95 with the Sony player. Three months after I plunked down 500 beans, the 330 came out with DTS decoding.

I can tell you that while doing some preliminary research online today, I am leaning towards a cheap player that will hold me through next year's major display upgrades, and can then be transferred to the bedroom system.
Ni!!

#4 of 35 Kevin C Brown

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Posted October 02 2004 - 07:14 AM

Manny- There are other cheap, but better performing (and especially: more reliable players out there). Marantz, Denon, Pioneer to name a few.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#5 of 35 MannyE

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Posted October 02 2004 - 09:34 AM

Are we talking universal players? My budget for an interim player is about 250 - 300. Am I in the ballpark?
Ni!!

#6 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted October 02 2004 - 09:42 AM

Manny: You can do alright in that price range. I think your mindset probably is the most logical and one that I share.

Pioneer 578, 963 if you can find it. Tons of mods out for that puppy. The various Panasonics XP30, RP82 (discontinued, you'll have to go to Ebay), Yamaha s1500, Panny s97 forthcoming, Denon 2910 I think... I know Marantz has something near that range or they will. I think we'll see some more as the year draws to a close.


Kevin, that Onkyo 1000 unit is smokin'. I've always found that brand to be quite reliable. Quite comparable to just about anyone else, really. Posted Image

#7 of 35 MannyE

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Posted October 02 2004 - 09:48 AM

THat's great to hear! Thanks a million for the model numbers!
Ni!!

#8 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted October 02 2004 - 01:43 PM

Probably be some others out there that people will help you with. Those are just the ones I personally know about. Posted Image

#9 of 35 yinan

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Posted November 17 2004 - 06:48 AM

Can someone tell me where to find the regional-free code for Onkyo 1000?

#10 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted November 17 2004 - 10:58 AM

No region free yet that I know of. If I find out about one, I'll get that info to this thread ASAP!

Vanns.com is an authorized dealer that I just recently bought mine from. They had a HELL of a sale that ended today, but even after that, they're price on the unit is as good as I've seen anywhere for authorized dealers. No shipping or tax helps that out as well.

#11 of 35 yinan

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Posted November 17 2004 - 05:25 PM

Did anyone compare the audio quality between Onkyo 1000 vs Onkyo 900, Onkyo 800 vs Denon 3910? Which one is best, better in terms of CD, SACD and DVD-A? Did Onkyo 800 and 1000 use the same audio DAC? I dont care about the video, since I plan to replace my existing CD player.

#12 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted November 18 2004 - 02:36 AM

http://www.avsforum.....by=&sortorder=

I'd pick out the most obviously relevant threads for Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5 out of this list.

The bottom line to it is this: The Denon 3910 is the only player you named that comes anywhere close to these two units. Those other Onkyo units are down the ladder a bit.

I hate to have to steer you to another forum, but we just can't seem to get this level of discussion going here for whatever reason. You will find, in these threads, TONS of links, documentation, first hand accounts, technical info, you name it. This is far more expedient than me trying to give it to you.

Start with www.onkyousa.com and www.integrahometheater.com
From there, I highlight these threads, in particular:


The four threads I'd really steer you towards, especially, would be:

http://www.avsforum.....t=Integra 10.5

http://www.avsforum.....t=Integra 10.5

http://www.avsforum.....t=Integra 10.5

http://www.avsforum.....t=Integra 10.5

http://www.avsforum.....t=Integra 10.5

The botton line is this. Many people have demoed the Denon 3910 against the Integra 10.5 and/or Onkyo 1000. What you're going to find is that, by large, most of them got rid of the Denon 3910 in lieu of these players. These were my personal findings as well when I demoed the units.

I finally bought the Onkyo 1000 last week because an authorized Internet dealer named Vanns had one sick sale on their hands. The price was too good to pass up. It was good enough that Onkyo themselves descend down on Vanns with threats of removing the franchise if that sale continued. I was one of the lucky ones who got through. That's how good the sale was. Posted Image

I take delivery today. Posted Image


I believe, personally, that the Integra 10.5 is the king of the <$2500 tier and the Onkyo 1000 is the king of the <$2000 tier. I think they're the players to beat.

People with more sensitive displays who are growing weary of the well documented Faroudja chip problems are more than happy with dumping Faroudja based players at any price for these units with, as they report, "A night and day difference."

Those are their words, not mine, as a lot of them have a lot more sophisticated equipment than I do. You'll see for yourself. Posted Image

I've had $3000+ Krell owners give begrudging props and respect to these units and refer to them as "comparable in every way" to what they own. Other have, as well. You'll see it for yourself. I think feedback like that starts painting you a picture after a while. Happy reading and good hunting! Posted Image

It's going to come down to your budget, your preference, how sensitive your display is, how you feel about Faroudja chips, etc.

If you can swing it, you know where I stand. Posted Image

#13 of 35 yinan

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Posted November 18 2004 - 04:58 AM

Eric,

Many thanking for the guidance.

#14 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted November 18 2004 - 06:10 AM

Good luck! Posted Image

FWIW, you'll come to a point where you will KNOW what the right decision is to make. Be patient with yourself. That's the most important part, even if you drive people nuts with being a fence sitter, like I did! Posted Image

Sincerely,

A very infamous and now former fence sitter. Posted Image

#15 of 35 Phil Nichols

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Posted November 18 2004 - 08:12 AM

MannyE,

How "universal" do you want to be? Are you willing to settle for DVD-A audio and forego SACD??

If you, why not at least consider a world class used DVD player to "get you by" for as long as you keep standard DVDs in your collection. One of the finest players ever built (without SACD or digital video) used or new might be worth scouting for: The Denon DVD-9000. State-of-the-Art (still) if you don't care about digital video or SACD. You might find a good deal used on one of these, but it might take a few weeks to connect. This unit has massive audio build quality (~40lbs) and superb 480 interlaced and progressive analog video via 14-bit video DAC's for both and Silicon Image Si504 deinterlacing. Reliable too.
Phil

#16 of 35 Kevin C Brown

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Posted November 18 2004 - 12:58 PM

There are other considerations though. For example, the Onkyo does indeed cost a nontrivial amount more than the 3910. Most people come to the conclusion that the Onkyo is a better player. Is it simply because the list price is higher? Or is it really genuinely a better player? (I'm saving my vote until at least Secret's has a chance to judge the Onkyo.) So since the Onkyo does cost about 50% more (list as well as street, even if you look around), the Onkyo *should* be a better player. But 50% better? I don't think so. Posted Image Depending on what the deciding criteria is for each person, the Denon does have better bass management for SACD and DVD-A, and it probably has a better layer change too. Those are two of my criteria. And the Onkyo doesn't do time alignment for SACD either. But a better picture and better overall sound quality? Maybe. But worth $500 to $700 more? Posted Image

Why isn't anyone comparing the Onkyo to the 59AVi? The Onkyo *should* be a better player than that one too. Posted Image At least based on list price...
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#17 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted November 18 2004 - 01:50 PM

Kevin: I really would invite you to try and demo the Onkyo yourself firsthand before you continue making assumptions and seemingly passing judgement on it. Most people who have compared it to the Denon or Pioneer end up going with the Onkyo. There's at least two exhaustive threads at AVS that will cover this for you further.

I received my Onkyo 1000 today. I'm utterly blown away in every single way possible. I DID compare it to the other players you mentioned and found it to be superior. If you've kept track of me at all the past week, you know that I had an insanely good deal fall in my lap from an authorized dealer that finally knocked me off the fence. $1447 to be exact.

Kevin, PLEASE find a way to at least sample this unit for yourself. Posted Image

#18 of 35 Kevin C Brown

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Posted November 18 2004 - 06:27 PM

Eric- Whether the Onkyo is a better player than the Denon or not wasn't really my point. It's the *value* you get for the money you spend. Law of diminishing returns and all that. Posted Image

Tell you what though. Posted Image I was actually planning to try to get the Denon this weekend. But I'll see if I can track down and at least look at the Onkyo too. But man, with HD-DVD coming soon, it's just really hard for me to justify spending $1500 or more on a player.

An interesting sidenote. I just got the Dec issue of Hi Fi News (UK rag). They reviewed the 3910 and kind of said that it didn't sound as good to them as the 2900. I'm letting the review "digest" for now. But that would actually push me to the ... 59 AVi. Posted Image

Another sidenote. My favorite dealer carries Onkyo and Integra, but not Pioneer. I kind of wish Secrets had reviewed the Onkyo by now. But I'm in no hurry either.

It would be quite funny to me, if I actually take a chance and get a 3910, and end up with a "bad" one!
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#19 of 35 EricRWem

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Posted November 19 2004 - 01:50 AM

*yawns* Mornin'. Posted Image I was up late playing with my new toy last night. Posted Image



Quote:
Kevin Brown wrote:
Eric- Whether the Onkyo is a better player than the Denon or not wasn't really my point. It's the *value* you get for the money you spend. Law of diminishing returns and all that.

Certainly. And obviously, this is THE most subjective criteria that there is. Let me put it to you like this.

As you know, I own the Zenith 318. GREAT player for its price and all. Closest thing to a giant killer out there, probably. At that price level, any flaws, including the laundry list associated with Faroudja are easily dismissed and forgiveable for the most part. The exceptions being: People with super high end and more sophisticated TV's and displays than what I have.

Be that as it may, I knew if I were going to upgrade, it would make no sense for me to stick with Faroudja. So that boiled it down to, as you well know, Yamaha s2500, the ever erstwhile Pioneer 59, and I told you, "The overkill Hail Mary Onkyo 1000." I don't have much confidence in the Denon brand and getting another Faroudja player, especially in these price ranges, simply made no sense to me personally.

You also know that I wanted a first class audio player that does every trick in the book.

Now, my original plan was to wait until January or so when the Yamaha s2500 hit the market. I'd have a few more paychecks under my belt and I'd really take in the scenery. Possibly leading up to CES.

But, then Earz from AVS dropped me a bomb last week Vanns.com was having this insane, blowout sale on the Onkyop for $1447! This is an authorized dealer! So, the deal was damned good, and I had demoed all these players, that just pretty finished it for me. And you KNOW what a fence sitter I've been! Posted Image

Keep in mind, and again I can refer you: I can get both the Pioneer 59 or Denon 3910 legit for $989 or so, and I still threw down the extra $400 without hesitation on a deal like that. That's how impressed I was with the Onkyo.

I've always confidence in the brand and great experiences anyways, and this just pushes me over the top. Posted Image

Quote:

Tell you what though. I was actually planning to try to get the Denon this weekend. But I'll see if I can track down and at least look at the Onkyo too. But man, with HD-DVD coming soon, it's just really hard for me to justify spending $1500 or more on a player.

I tell you the honest truth. And believe me, I'm a cheapskate that's hard to please telling you this: All things considered, out of the box, the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5, at these prices ranges, are the closest stop gap you are going to find until HD-DVD.

And remember: It's going to take probably several years before the new formats have much support or really take stride. Look at the SACD and DVD-A markets RIGHT NOW for what I feel is probably a general preview of how the HD-DVD market will be.

It's going to be VHS vs. Betmax part II and I have no plans of being an early adopter, being a guinea pig and glorified beta tester. Can you imagine how many bug threads are going to be at AVS when the first batch of these HD and Blu-Ray players hit the market!? LOL!

The way I see it is this: Our home theaters are an investment. I wanted to have the best now, within reason, and I think I pulled it off. This is a player I'm going to use literally until it dies in my face. Worst case scenario possible: Several years from now, it gets relegated down to an audio only player. I doubt it's going to happen.

Knowing me, I like to spread wear and tear anyways, so I'd probably still use it for all standard DVD's and use the new machine strictly for new hardware.

It's a win-win my man. Posted Image

Quote:

An interesting sidenote. I just got the Dec issue of Hi Fi News (UK rag). They reviewed the 3910 and kind of said that it didn't sound as good to them as the 2900. I'm letting the review "digest" for now. But that would actually push me to the ... 59 AVi.

Hands down, I'd get the 59avi over the Denon. The 59avi has been a time proven, tested, stalwart, almighty warrior and I still think it's the king of AT LEAST the <$1000 tier if not even higher than that.

If I really had been in a pinch, and that awesome Onkyo deal hadn't come out of thin air, I would have probably bought that Pioneer at $989 with a big smile on my face in time for Christmas. Again, I can give you that referral if you want it.

I'm not trying to diss Denon at all. I think they make really good products and they've had a rash of bad luck. It happens.

But I read your earlier posts and your criteria. Let me say this to you, in a friendly manner:

Pause, take a breath, step back, look at the big picture. Stop overthinking so much and getting hung up on a lot of nitpicky, technical jargon. Your last post almost reads like you're looking for excuses to take the Onkyo down a peg or two, without ever having seen it as you admit here.

I'm here to tell you: Nothing's perfect, but this thing comes as close as you're going to likely find straight out of the box. Believe it! But guess what?

Just like I don't want to see you or anyone hang your hat on any outsiders' reviews or opinions (including Secrets, which I respect but I have a feeling I know how that next Shootout is going to go regardless of facts, and I think you suspect it as well...) don't take my word for it or anyone else's: You NEED to see this thing for yourself and take it for a whirl. Find a way, somehow, to demo this monster.

Quote:

Another sidenote. My favorite dealer carries Onkyo and Integra, but not Pioneer. I kind of wish Secrets had reviewed the Onkyo by now. But I'm in no hurry either.

I mean this with all due respect, but, who cares what Secrets says? Or anyone else ultimately, for that matter? Are you really going to hang your hat and decisions on one source and one outside review? C'mon man!

You know that Denon is probably going to end up winning out just like it has on most of the rest of their shootouts, regardless of circumstance. By all rights and consensus, the Integra and Onkyo are hte new kings of the mountain and I'll be very dismayed if the Secrets' tests don't confirm that. That certainly would fly in the face of a rather healthy and large consensus that's growing every day. You and I have had some chats about in the past.

Don't wait for someone else to make a determination for you. Don't even take my word for it!

I would go down ASAP and take both the Integra 10.5 and the Onkyo 1000 for a spin. Take down discs that you know intimately, schedule and appointment, do whatever you need to do.

I simply defy you to not be blown away. Posted Image

Quote:

It would be quite funny to me, if I actually take a chance and get a 3910, and end up with a "bad" one!

I'm going to tell you interesting anecdote, and you can go to AVS and check out the several Onkyo 1000 threads or especially the Integra 10.5 main thread to check me out on this. Mind you, I've also had what I'm about to tell you happen to me personally.

The consensus and growing trend goes like this: Most people who have demoed and compared the Onkyo to the Denon 3910 almost invariably dump the Denon for the Onkyo and walk. Hands down. To a lesser extent, depending on budget, they also favor the Onkyo over even the Pioneer 59. No kidding.

And I've had $3000+ Krell owners tell me personally, as have many others, how amazing this Onkyo/Integra unit and how "quite comparble" they really are to what they have.

The Krell owners admit this with begrudging respect through clenched teeth. Posted Image Something like that, except less joyful looking.

So, if you take that in, take in the MASS body of feedback and reviews coming, first from overseas, and now more over here, it leads back to this:

Kevin, YOU, without any outside influence, need to see these for yourself, run them through their paces, then make a decision. Don't worry about Secrets, don't worry about me, don't worry about anyone else. DO IT YOURSELF!

And have a fun time my man!

When you first feel this thing, see it operate, note the incredible build quality right down to the best remote control I've ever owned in my life on through and the super easy and intuitive user interface, setup, and menus...good luck to you not being blown away! Posted Image

I had this thing connected and completely setup and going in less than 10 minutes. That's how easy, slick, intuitive, and user friendly this unit is. WOW! Posted Image
Posted Image Posted Image

P.S. Having an even halfway decent receiver addressed a lot of the nitpicks you mentioned in your earlier post, as you probably well know. And as for layer change? Virtually nonexistent. I'm strictly at the mercy of how well the DVD itself was coded and manufactered. Posted Image

#20 of 35 Vladimir

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Posted November 19 2004 - 04:40 AM

"The consensus and growing trend goes like this: Most people who have demoed and compared the Onkyo to the Denon 3910 almost invariably dump the Denon for the Onkyo and walk. Hands down. To a lesser extent, depending on budget, they also favor the Onkyo over even the Pioneer 59. No kidding."
------------------------------------------------------------
Most people? You mean like 2 or 3 based on what I see in the other forum. But these people are indeed very vocal and they create an impression that at least a hundred people compared Denon to Onkyo and all chose Onkyo. In fact, that it is simply not true.

Yes a few people with very strong opinions preferred Onkyo over Denons. Does it mean that Onkyo is a better player? I doubt it. Yes, Denon has had a fair share of problems with macroblocking but Denon 3910 is a lot cheaper than Onkyo 1000. And not all displays are affected by macroblocking.If your display is not affected than I bet Denon would be as good as Onkyo on a video side and at a much less in price.

In terms of audio Denon is as good or better than Onkyo. DACs in Onkyo are not on par with DACs in Denon (both 3910 and 5900, especially 5900). Just look at the specs - DACs in both Denon 3910 and 5900 are better in all respects, S/N ratio, dynamic range and harmonic distortion. And at these levels of differences (between Onkyo and Denon 5900) these differences are likely to be audible.

On top, Denons play HDCD which is a big plus.
I personally have denon 5900 and I think it is extremely good with all audio formats and there is no way I am going to get Onkyo over my 5900 for audio.

But everybody is different and opinions vary. The fact that a small number of people said that Onkyo is better than Denon just does not mean much. I think all these players - Pioneer 59, Onkyo and Denons (3910 and 5900) are all really good and deserve auditioning. After that, it is just personal preference.


Vladimir


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