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What are the negatives about purchasing a large LCD set?


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#1 of 44 Joe Karlosi

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Posted August 17 2004 - 04:38 AM

I've been pricing large LCD sets, after seeing how excellent my DVDs look on my tiny computer LCD monitor. Are there any downfalls or problems with this technology I should be aware of?

#2 of 44 Steven.W.T

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Posted August 17 2004 - 05:08 AM

Screen door effect.
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#3 of 44 Mort Corey

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Posted August 17 2004 - 05:27 AM

Assuming you don't mean the RPLCD boxes.....$$$$$$$$$$

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#4 of 44 Michael TLV

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Posted August 17 2004 - 05:48 AM

Greetings

SDE is not an issue if you sit where you are supposed to sit. ie ... not too close.

If you get close to any of these fixed pixel technologies, you see the pixel structure.

Get too close to a tube set and you see red green and blue dots.

Issues for LCD technology .. RP or FP let's say.

Dead Pixels
Stuck Pixels
Vertical Banding effects
Uneven Discolouration of image over time. Gets worse and worse if you do not look after it. (Fixable)
Bulb wear .. (2000 hr to 8000 hr depending on technology)
Weaker blacks ...

Not to be watched in complete darkness ... needs ambient light to look better.

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#5 of 44 Frank@N

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Posted August 17 2004 - 06:00 AM

Quote:
Screen door effect.


From similar viewing distances, I tend to see more artifacts in larger LCDs than in DLP or plasma.

For smaller displays, LCD is great; but at 42"-50" I start seeing picture elements too clearly.

Just my 2 cents.

#6 of 44 John S

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Posted August 17 2004 - 07:57 AM

Hmmm, check out the newer Sony 60XBR950....

I got to see one of these recently at a B&M, and it was truly the first time RPLCD ever just blew me away by just how good it really was.

I was close, very close to the set, and did not detect any screen door effect quite surprisingly.

#7 of 44 ChrisWiggles

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Posted August 17 2004 - 08:07 AM

Quote:
Are there any downfalls or problems with this technology I should be aware of?

What kind of viewing environment are you thinking about, and are you talking LCD flat panels, or LCD projection (front or rear)?

Because, IMO, LCD is one of the weaker display types in terms of *just* picture quality, but is appropriate for certain applications.

#8 of 44 Joe Karlosi

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Posted August 17 2004 - 08:25 AM

I'm not very technical, I'm afraid. So sorry for that in advance. I'd be viewing in my living room, and I have never sat close to a TV in my life (I always prefer being distanced).

I was looking at the flat sets that hang on the wall, as well as ones that stand (rear projection?) I would be using this exclusively for DVD watching, not broadcast television.

That list above which Michael detailed kind of sours me on this, though. It's just that I've never seen a picture as smooth and flat as on my PC monitor recently, and I just wondered about getting a large screen...

#9 of 44 ChrisWiggles

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Posted August 17 2004 - 08:59 AM

That list, with different problems, exists for any type of display.

I'm not that familiar with LCD flat-panels specifically, mainly because I'm a big projection guy, and flat-screen stuff I don't follow specifically.

#10 of 44 Michael TLV

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Posted August 18 2004 - 02:38 AM

Greetings

Yes, that's just a list that was asked for. Similar lists can be made for all technology types ...

It's the environment that the set is going into and the person buying the technology that determines what is best.

(Kinda sorta)

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#11 of 44 John S

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Posted August 18 2004 - 03:21 AM

I see "Large LCD" and automatically assume RPLCD.
I'm not sure what the biggest direct view is really.

So I'd be curous, what is the biggest direct view LCD available these days?

#12 of 44 Michael TLV

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Posted August 18 2004 - 03:27 AM

Greetings

Given that LCD flat panels are on the way to supplanting plasma ... they are getting larger all the time.

I believe at the CES, they had 50 ones already ... largest was 57" ...

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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
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#13 of 44 John S

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Posted August 18 2004 - 03:39 AM

Wow, thanks Michael....

I had no idea that the direct views had gotten so large as that. I guess it's beyond time to change my thinking on them as smallish. Pretty darn cool really they have gotten that large really, especially when I consider the sheer girth and tonnage of my 60" RPCRT set.

#14 of 44 andrew markworthy

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Posted August 18 2004 - 08:04 AM

I have a 27" LCD [Logik - I don't the make has reached the USA yet] which we bought after our CRT set went phut (two months after the end of the extended warranty of course Posted Image ). We wanted a flatter screen (we'd recently moved house and it suited the room better; but had the CRT kept going, we wouldn't have replaced it just yet) and given the price tumbles in plasma and LCD that are likely over the next couple of years, we decided we'd get a relatively cheap model to tick over with until the prices of a larger screen become more affordable (call me a cheapskate, but I resent the thought of spending several grand on a good plasma only to see it on sale for a few hundred a year and half later).

This preamble is a long way of saying that we were basically forced into buying an LCD as a stop-gap measure, so I've no reason to be particularly defensive about it. From reasonably extensive use over the past couple of months (and like you, Joe, I'm not very technically minded) I can say the following:

(1) make sure you get the set properly set up - a DVD calibration disc is *essential*
(2) avoid setting contrast and brightness too high
(3) avoid leaving the set tuned into a channel with a logo permanently in one position on the screen (unless you want a ghost image permanently etched on the screen)

Assuming you get it properly set up, then:

(1) you shouldn't get the screen door effect at all (I believe it only applies to projectors)
(2) blacks should be fine E.g. my LCD passed all the tests on the digital video essentials disc (sorry, may have had brain freeze - is that the right title for the disc everyone on HTF recommends?)
(3) you'll hear some people say that fast moving objects can appear to leave a slight trail. In the UK it's usually said that it's very obvious in watching soccer matches. All I can say is that I've never seen it and I've looked closely.
(4) I've never encountered the problems listed by Michael, though I've looked for them. Having said that, we have an extended no quibble 5 year guarantee on our set (about the length of time we reckon we'll need the set before prices have reached a sane level) so if the bulb wears out, etc, we're covered for full replacement cost.

Also re: the remark about some ambient light is needed. At the risk of sounding nanny-like, you should have a little background light when watching TV - it's much better for your eyes. Having said that, late at night I watch our LCD without any lights and it looks just great.

I'd personally advise against hanging the screen on the wall unless the decor in your room really suits it. I know that it looks great in the publicity brochures, but I've seen a couple of instances of folks having wall-mounted sets that looked naff (sorry, do you have that phrase in the USA? - it means something that just looks so aesthetically wrong it's embarrassingly bad).

I note, Joe, that you're planning to use your screen just for DVD. I would say that having calibrated our screen for DVD it can be fairly merciless in exposing flaws in broadcast programmes (e.g. it's especially revealing with some of the minority interest channels broadcast at a lower bitrate).

Hope this is of use.

#15 of 44 Dave Scarpa

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Posted August 18 2004 - 08:41 AM

I'm considering either a 50+ Inch samsung DLP or an Infocus 4805 . THe Samsung would go upstairs or the Infocus in my Basement HT. The samsung would be my main Televsion. If I went with the Infocus it would be strictly for Movie watching.

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#16 of 44 Frank@N

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Posted August 18 2004 - 08:51 AM

Quote:
I tend to see more artifacts in larger LCDs than in DLP or plasma.


Realizing this might depend alot on signal source.

Was at BB today and was looking at the 60" Grand WEGA LCD.

It was apparently getting an HD signal and looked very nice even at close range.

Samsung's new pedestal DLP was next to it, running a Matrix sequel.

Mosquito noise was very obvious, too bad they didn't turn on the HD for both so I could walk backwards and compare.

#17 of 44 Joe Karlosi

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Posted August 18 2004 - 09:47 AM

Quote:
I note, Joe, that you're planning to use your screen just for DVD. I would say that having calibrated our screen for DVD it can be fairly merciless in exposing flaws in broadcast programmes (e.g. it's especially revealing with some of the minority interest channels broadcast at a lower bitrate).

Hope this is of use.

Thanks, Andrew.

When I say I'd be watching DVD exclusively, I should clarify this more. I am only interested in great picture quality for DVD; I may watch a little TV now and then, but I don't care what a broadcast signal looks like, at all. I just want my movies on disc to look outstanding. Posted Image

To further accentuate how hopeless I am with technology, I don't even know what's meant by using a disc to calibrate the set! Could you put this in layman's terms? Thanks...

And speaking of burn-ins with logos and so forth, how does an LCD handle this with bars (both horizontal and vertical?)

#18 of 44 ChrisWiggles

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Posted August 18 2004 - 01:10 PM

Quote:
Was at BB today

What is it with everyone trying to compare things at best buy. Don't try. Brightly lit environment, and not calibrated. Don't waste your time.

#19 of 44 andrew markworthy

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Posted August 18 2004 - 09:50 PM

Quote:
To further accentuate how hopeless I am with technology, I don't even know what's meant by using a disc to calibrate the set! Could you put this in layman's terms? Thanks...


No problem.

On some DVDs you may already own there may be a 'THX optimizer' on the menu page. The items you find there are a basic set of calibration tests. A full calibration disc simply consists of a lot more of these sorts of tests.

If you haven't got any discs with a THX optimizer option on them, and the above paragraph means zilch, then a bit more explanation is needed.

A calibration disc contains a collection of (usually) still images. Typically these are patterns and/or blocks of colour (sorry, color). You play each image in turn and then adjust the controls (usually on your TV set) until the pattern appears as close as possible to the desired state. This sounds complicated, but in practice it's much easier. Let's take an example.

Typically when you take delivery of a set, the contrast (i.e. the difference between light and dark parts of the picture)and the brightness will be set way too high. This gives you a more 'exciting' picture, but you're missing the subtleties of the picture. It's rather like cranking up the bass on a hi-fi system. It sounds more impressive (at least in the short term) but it's a distortion. In the case of an LCD screen you're also damaging the screen in the long term. A calibration disc will help you get the brightness and contrast just right. A typical pattern will be a set of grey bars that get increasingly dark, and you will be asked to adjust your set until a certain number of the bars disappear into the black background. This can seem counterintuitive (e.g. why do you want to adjust a screen so part of the image disappears?) but trust me, it works.

Other patterns help you adjust colour balance, sharpness of image, etc. There are also a series of audio tests (again, similar to the audio section of the THX optimizer).

There are a couple of calibration discs on the market at the moment. The one I used is called Digital Video Essentials (easily available from many retailers; be wary about buying a used copy in case you get the original version which was superceded a year or so ago by a new version with rather better tests). If you do a search of HTF threads you'll find an extensive discussion of its pros and cons. To be honest, if you're doing a straightforward non-technical set up, the basic calibration tests will suffice. The one thing I would caution is that you set up the screen in the conditions you will normally watch under (e.g. don't set up the screen in daylight with the curtains open if you normally watch late at night will all lights off). I know it sounds obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people decide they'll do the calibration (it'll probably take a couple of hours) in the day in preparation for an evening's viewing.

Hope this is of use.

#20 of 44 Joe Karlosi

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Posted August 18 2004 - 10:50 PM

Thanks again, Andrew. Much appreciated.

I tend to prefer my contrast and brightness levels low even on regular TV so I guess that's a good thing.

As for calibrating, can't you just set the controls to how you like the picture personally? Or is it more of a safety feature?


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