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ILink vs other


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#1 of 16 Todd_Petersen

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Posted July 24 2004 - 07:07 AM

I am going to buy a new DVD player in 2 months or less. I see alot on Ilink or IEEE right?

I have a B&K AVR 507 with a IEEE port and want to know if this is the best hookup i can use for my new DVD player i will get?

Would this be much better then the standard optical?
Sorry if i sound like a newb but i am somewhat.

#2 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 24 2004 - 03:45 PM

IEEE-1394, Firewire, Ilink are the same standard (just different names). And yes, this is the best way to pass audio to the receiver.

Standard optical (and digital coax) does not have enough bandwidth to pass hi-rez music (DVD-A and SACD).

#3 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 25 2004 - 01:40 AM

Standard optical (and digital coax) does not have enough bandwidth to pass hi-rez music (DVD-A and SACD).

With the exception of a very few proprietary source/receiver combos and a few expensive sources, no players on the market today will pass DVD-Audio or SACD on IEEE 1394 or any other digital output. For all practical purposes, IEEE 1394 is currently only being used for outputting Redbook CD and DD/DTS bitstreams and in that role it has no advantage over Toslink or coaxial.

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#4 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 25 2004 - 10:22 AM

Quote:
no players on the market today will pass DVD-Audio or SACD on IEEE 1394


Huh? The Pioneer 47ai, Pioneer 59avi, Onkyo sp1000, Denon 5900, Denon 3910, and Denon 5910 will all pass both DVD-A and SACD through their 1394 link. Pioneer is also due to have a another new DVD player out soon. These players can be paired with 1394 equipped receivers - regardless of manufacturer.

#5 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 25 2004 - 11:59 AM

Rob - You quoted me completely out of context, but your reply illustrated most of my point perfectly anyway:

Denon DVD-5900: $2000 MSRP.
Denon DVD-3910: $1300 MSRP and NOT AVAILABLE until late fall.
Denon DVD-5910: $2000> MSRP and NOT AVAILABLE until 2005.
Onkyo DV-SP1000: $2000 MSRP
Pioneer DV-47Ai: $899 MSRP (street $550-$700)
Pioneer DV-49Ai: $1200 MSRP

The DV-47Ai is the only somewhat affordable player on this list. My point remains - if you want to pass DVD-A or SACD digitally, it's going to cost you. If you don't find these prices intimidating then we have different definitions of the word "expensive". Besides, at the price point of most of these Universal players chances are their DACs are going to outperform anything found in a receiver *anyway*, so what's the point of digital for high-res? Better bass management in the receiver? Maybe, but that would be a high price to pay for lesser sound quality.

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#6 of 16 John Kotches

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Posted July 25 2004 - 01:35 PM

Doug says:

Quote:
If you don't find these prices intimidating then we have different definitions of the word "expensive". Besides, at the price point of most of these Universal players chances are their DACs are going to outperform anything found in a receiver *anyway*, so what's the point of digital for high-res? Better bass management in the receiver? Maybe, but that would be a high price to pay for lesser sound quality.

I don't find the prices intimidating, and yes we do have different definitions of the word expensive. So?

As for the why, here's a simple one for you:

Room Correction

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#7 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 25 2004 - 03:26 PM

The orig poster (thread author) stated that he has a B&K so I figured that he was into good audio, and not looking for entry-level equipment.

Denon 3910 - available in 2 or 3 weeks. Possible $1150 street.
Pioneer 47ai - less than $500 street
Pioneer 59avi - less than $1000 street

Those are fair prices to me. After paying $3K-$10K for a display, $3K-10K for the audio system, $1K for good player seems reasonable to me. The player is an important part of the audio (and video) system. Its too bad that most people try to spend as little as possible for such an important piece of equipment.

Oh, and some people might be (are) spending big money on the 6 ICs required for 5.1 analog (which would be eliminated with ilink).

Quote:
You quoted me completely out of context

Sorry. I kinda knew where you were going to go with it. But for the most part, people with ilink capable receivers/pre-pros are not looking for entry-level universals. And yes, good point on the "newer DACs" comment, but players still dont have good BM, slopes, and/or TA - which should not be underestimated.

#8 of 16 John Kotches

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Posted July 25 2004 - 11:30 PM

The B&K Firewire port is (at this time) still a vanity port. It's going to require a hardware upgrade to make it work.

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#9 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 26 2004 - 12:40 AM

Quote:
vanity port


Like the HDMI port on the Krell DVD palyer? Now THATS a topic for discussion.

#10 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 26 2004 - 01:21 AM

Quote:
Room Correction
Unless you've got 5 matched full range speakers and a proper listening environment for multichannel, this is going to have FAR less of an impact on the listening experience than DAC quality.

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#11 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 26 2004 - 01:26 AM

The orig poster (thread author) stated that he has a B&K so I figured that he was into good audio, and not looking for entry-level equipment.

This is true. For people with the proper downstream equipment and want the option of using either the DACs in the player or the receiver/processor, then IEEE 1394 offers some additional flexibility. I suppose that I was trying to point out that for MOST PEOPLE, passing high-res audio via a digital connection has no real value at this point in the game. It's a nice option to have, but not a feature to base a purchasing decision on.

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#12 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 26 2004 - 02:08 AM

Quote:
Unless you've got 5 matched full range speakers and a proper listening environment for multichannel, this is going to have FAR less of an impact on the listening experience than DAC quality.


I disagree with this. Well first, receivers with ilink already have pretty good DACs (as they are not entry-level products). And there is a lot you can do with these receivers to balance out room correction. In fact, Denon, Pioneer, and Yamaha even have AUTOMATIC para-EQs to balance out the room.

You only need "5 matched full range speakers and a proper listening environment" if your equipment has limited abilities (ala current universal players - hence the desire for ilink).

#13 of 16 Rob Kramer

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Posted July 26 2004 - 02:13 AM

Quote:
I suppose that I was trying to point out that for MOST PEOPLE, passing high-res audio via a digital connection has no real value at this point in the game.


True, but I didnt answer one of those "questions for the masses" threads. I tend to stay away from those. Im sick of people complaining about cheapo dvd players (and other equipment). Sometimes I wonder if this is the HOME THEATER forum or GRANDMAS HOUSE TV AND SOUND forum.

#14 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 26 2004 - 02:33 AM

You only need "5 matched full range speakers and a proper listening environment" if your equipment has limited abilities (ala current universal players - hence the desire for ilink).
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. In my opinion if your surround and center channel speakers aren't matched to your mains AND capable of reproducing full range sound then you aren't going to realize the full potential of multichannel high-res audio. This issue has already been debateed ad-nauseum, so there's really no need to get into it again. This thread isn't the place for it anyway. We're starting to hijack it. Posted Image

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#15 of 16 dpippel

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Posted July 26 2004 - 02:36 AM

Im sick of people complaining about cheapo dvd players (and other equipment).

People complain about expensive gear just as much as they do the cheap stuff. Go over to AVS Forum, Audio Asylum, Head-Fi, etc. and read threads on Meridian or Krell or [insert high-end audio manufacturer here]. It's just human nature, and it's all relative.

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#16 of 16 John Kotches

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Posted July 26 2004 - 06:06 PM

Doug Pippel responds on Room Correction with:

Quote:
Unless you've got 5 matched full range speakers and a proper listening environment for multichannel, this is going to have FAR less of an impact on the listening experience than DAC quality.

Actually it makes a tremendous difference regardless if properly implemented.

A properly designed room correction system will address frequencies below about 250Hz where room treatments have the least effect. EVERY room benefits from this.

It will have more effect on the experience than the subtle flavorings of DACs. Current entry level vs. top tier DACs are very close in performance, and unless you're way up their in system setups you will have an extremely tough time discerning between DACs.

I'm not sure where you've come up with the belief that DACs are going to be more relevant than addressing the room itself, but it's quite misguided.

Cheers,
Surround Music Enthusiast / Curmudgeon in Training
Opinions are my own, not representative of the publication I write for.


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