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Woof-Mania/Sub-Age Overkill Observation!


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#1 of 65 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:00 AM

Constant observation here:

What is with this major sub over kill that many here seem to be hooked on. I swear that the posts daily here just push people to feel as tho their missing something and turn another into a over kill Woof junky.

Basic Need:
Some clean headroom compared to ones "usual listening levels" this also keeps distorsion #'s down, yes a good thing.

Extension to a soild or near soild 20Hz in your choosen sub for HT, yes good thing.

Ability to blend well with your other speaks at the choosen crossover point if used..

On the side:
Tweaking is always involved to get the most from any sub. Placement for a rooms best overall response and extension, possibly an Eq in the toughest rooms, phasing issues, the list goes on... Trade offs sometimes have to be made, but thats subben..

A for sure:
All rooms are different so what works well in one usually dose not work the same in another.

The Rub:
But 2, 3, 4 and up good quailty subs, or a single or more Monster high output subs (insert your multi/s or Monster sub/s here), is just plain overkill "in most situatuions", I just do not get it.

I belive that many people with a good sub that meet the basic need criteria above (regardless of brand), get all "caught up" in these over kill (sub thread/discussions)... Soon they feel they just gots to have something thats Bigger/better/deeper/louder/just plain more..

In "some case", yes a bigger/deeper reaching/higher spl capable more bad ass sub/s is called for.
~{People who like/want to listen at Ref, those with large to very large rooms & or very open leaky rooms}~
BUT the "Average Room" certainly dose not need the Woofage Mania over kill I see and read here nearly daily..

I got caught up in this stuff :b for about 6-months, around a year ago or so. In the end, I never use all the woffage I have and even when I get a hair up my butt and feel like tearing/shaking the whole damn neighborhood appart, that might last a whole 10 miutes or so...!
IMO a good sub meeting the basic HT Bass requirments above is enough for most! The money spent on all this extra Woofage is really a waste at least (for me anyway).
It's NOT used enough to justify the $$$ I spent (and their DIY also). Those $$$ could have been used some where else more productive, be it what it may.

I already can hear the wheeles spinning with why one needs or have all that Woofage..
I'm all ears and would imagine other are curious too...

Insane dosen't count, Frank.Posted Image

This is not meant to bash on you "IMO" nearly border line crazy multi or monster multi Woffen 135db at 20-Hz guys, JUST WHY?

Regards
Geoff
~{ Speak of what you know, listen to what you don't.! }~  

#2 of 65 OFFLINE   Robert Cowan

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:07 AM

i smell a flame. Geoff, have you heard a "monster" dual sub setup? if not, go do it. i can say that when i switched to dual subs it made a huge difference. and this is a calibrated system. i have a +-1dB response from 30hz - 20khz, in room response. so, its not calibrated hot, its done right. go listen to a system with dual subs, you will likey.

#3 of 65 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:20 AM

Political correctness rears its ugly head again. Just because someone disagrees with the bass-hedz does not mean he is flaming or a troll.

#4 of 65 OFFLINE   BrianAe

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:42 AM

I hear you Geoff. I think one always has to look at the % of investment one is putting into each component of a HT. One area that I might disagree with you though is what is a normal room. I think for those with living room theaters, a big or open room is the norm. Another point to clarify is that the SPL levels you want to attain is a huge factor and not just with respect to want reference vs. don't need it. Even the difference between -10db and -20db is huge in terms of how much sub you need.

#5 of 65 OFFLINE   Brandon:W

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:49 AM

It's all in the ear of the beholder. Most people wouldn't even consider spending more than $500 for a full set of speakers - much less more than $500 for a sub alone. Granted, you probably get diminishing returns when you start super-subbing, but you are still getting something. More power to the sub-elite! Brandon

#6 of 65 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted July 23 2004 - 09:21 AM

No I know Geoff well and he is not flaming. He has ran a few subs himself and is just venting what (some) realise after some time.

Headroom does need to be addressed and it will be what one decides he or she wants. That might not coincide with what is needed but none the same. This very thing goes for our speakers and amps. How far do we take it? I know I like to keep improving and consider this a hobby as many others do also. Subsequently purchasing different options in bass appeals to me. How about guys who like to fish. Ever notice how many poles they have and reals? Yes some of us do go beyond but what the heck! We're only having fun.

Lets come clean Geoff and talk about all your rooms filled up with gear including the the gear you have stored over at your folksPosted Image I'll also bet you a dollar my friend that you will be building another sub within a month if health permits?

West Walker

#7 of 65 OFFLINE   Mark Seaton

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Posted July 23 2004 - 09:29 AM

Even though I am as big a "pusher" as any for more headroom with the bass, I feel that many do mis-direct their energies. I have posted here and elsewhere that I feel the way to ouline and build a solid HT is with a choice first in center channel, with awareness of what L&R will match, followed by a capable subwoofer. For impressive HT experience I find ~25Hz being the critical extension where you notice the most subjective improvement. There is much to be had below this, but often at much greater effort, size and/or expense. My take is that even if your subwoofer is capable of 20Hz or lower, but can't deliver the clean peaks you will use down to 25Hz, it is not meeting your needs. When I have done custom designs for friends and customers where budgets are tighter, I have no problem compromising the low frequency extension to ensure we have proper power to 25Hz. Of course this then has to come back to the quality of the center channel and the power "motivating" it. The center needs to be well behaved at comparable playback levels as the sub. The fact is that many center channels are quite lacking. That said, mains of modest output, yet good quality can be made to seem more impressive with a subwoofer which can better handle 80-100Hz on down. Here at HTF we see the majority of systems in the realm of the non-exotic, where intelligent allocation of funds is important, and like it or not, every component is a balance of compromises. Understanding how these different compromises affect your HT experience is the most difficult part and what most are trying to get comfortable with. Fortunately I see more and more that calibration, careful setup and even measurements are recommended, as they should be. Combine this with awareness of room size/volume and listening distance, and decisions get much easier when looking at the various options.
Mark Seaton
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#8 of 65 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted July 23 2004 - 10:06 AM

Nothing wrong with having fun with an HT system.

But for the casual HT fan and/or newbies y'all need to clarify the difference between NEED and WANT when it comes to bass reproduction.

#9 of 65 OFFLINE   Frank.Ch

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Posted July 23 2004 - 10:55 AM

Great thread. I like to be considered a Bass head because I love bass. And besides, I've got the money, why not? Posted Image

#10 of 65 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted July 23 2004 - 11:06 AM

But for the casual HT fan and/or newbies y'all need to clarify the difference between NEED and WANT when it comes to bass reproduction.
__________________________________________________ ______

What you need to have is twice as much as you want. Then you wont be in want.Posted Image Well in theory anyway.

#11 of 65 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted July 23 2004 - 11:08 AM

This is not a thread for the people with begining HT's sub & systems, but for the people who have decent set up's and HQ-sub/s, along with a good understanding of system balance and how the system should operate.
Also knowing that correct setup of that equipment is critical to get the most from ones investment. Calibration and infinte tweaking is not only important but a must.

No ones tastes are the same, but over kill woofen is just that. I'm talking more headroom than you will really seriously use along with un-restrained spl threw the subs FR say to 20Hz that would never been utilized aside from setting a new in room spl sub record or something.

I seriously think that some just have to have the latest greatest (if needed or not),,,, and then get two just because. This when one latest/greatest ~{would be more than enough for their listening habbits and room}~, and this "person definitely knows it"...

This is the type thinking I do not understand.

And yes I have heard properly set up, eq-ed, and calied multi sub set ups. Mine being one of them with 4-long throw 12's running at one time and SVS could be mentioned in this breath. At that time (just weeks ago), all used the same 12" driver.
Again, more Woofage and headroom than I ever used unless I was trying to set a new in room spl record.

Not beating up on this type thinking/approach, just trying to understand why..
Headroom is a good thing, trying to even out bass response using dual subs understandable, but when is enough,
enough....

Regards
Geoff
Hi Frank nice of you to join in...
~{ Speak of what you know, listen to what you don't.! }~  

#12 of 65 OFFLINE   Robert Cowan

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Posted July 23 2004 - 11:19 AM

i didnt say geoff was flaming, i was just saying that there might be flames in result of his comments, thats all. and as far as the prices go, you guys dont have to buy my equipment. if i want to spend $5k on my subs, i can. if you cant, well, sorry... prices shouldnt factor into all this. if its worth it, for any price, then its still worth it.

#13 of 65 OFFLINE   Dennis Gardner

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Posted July 23 2004 - 03:50 PM

HT Sub Woofage isn't alot different than other guy hobbies that come to mind: Car audio has SPL when SQ is about calibration. Jeep 4x4s have their place, I find trucks bordering on monster truck height useles. Dropping a car a couple inches helps with handling, putting it on the ground, then making it jump, makes me laugh. Rifles are fine for hunting, M-16s or AK 47s serve little practical purpose. Alot collect them though. Hiking seems like fun, free climbing seems like suicide. "C" cups are nice, Double "H" looks like a cartoon! I guess that it is a matter of degree with most anything we do. DG

#14 of 65 OFFLINE   frank manrique

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:07 PM

quote: "Rifles are fine for hunting, M-16s or AK 47s serve little practical purpose. Alot collect them though." Dennis, Nope, sorry...but rifles, including the M-16s (fully automatic-capable military weapons; AR-15s are the semi-automatic civilian version) and even the ugly (I think) AK-47s--they are rifles too, you know--indeed have practical uses; they aren't for hunting or collecting either. The Second Amendment of the US Constitution guarantees such practical uses to every citizen. I really didn't mean to go off course from the subject matter under discussion, but urgently felt compelled to address this issue, which is an issue that cries out for a bit of clarification. I do get the point you're trying to make, however... -THTS "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

#15 of 65 OFFLINE   frank manrique

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:18 PM

quote:

"Hi Frank nice of you to join in..."

If you mean moi...then just give me some time and I will join in. Posted Image But if whom you addressed was actually the other Frank...well, sorry for interrupting... Posted Image

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

#16 of 65 OFFLINE   frank manrique

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Posted July 23 2004 - 08:21 PM

quote:

"...and as far as the prices go, you guys dont have to buy my equipment. if i want to spend $5k on my subs, i can. if you cant, well, sorry..."

Ah...a man after my own heart! Good post, Bob!... Posted Image

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

#17 of 65 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted July 24 2004 - 01:27 AM

i didn't say geoff was flaming, i was just saying that there might be flames in result of his comments, thats all.
__________________________________________________ _______

I understand Robert and agree. Geoff is just pissed because He would like to upgrade his drivers but cant at this time. If he had the room he surly would. But as it is, he needs to truck out the inventory he's sitting on now. He simply needs to move out of his condo and get a house with a three story storage facility.

Heh guys > I just ordered the PC-Ultra a few days ago. Do you think I'm just throwing $$ down the drain?Posted Image Or do you think I should be putting a :b face after that statement?

>>>>No ones tastes are the same, but over kill woofen is just that. I'm talking more headroom than you will really seriously use along with un-restrained spl threw the subs FR say to 20Hz that would never been utilized aside from setting a new in room spl sub record or something.<<<<

Seriously Geoff-- I understand your point and have decided I don't need as much headroom as I have had in the past but that's just me. Take Frank m for instance. If that's what he wants to do and is having fun trying to achieve what-ever he is up to. Then more power to him imo. It might not be worth much, but I'm willing to stand beside him and defend in any way I can.

#18 of 65 OFFLINE   HKGuns

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Posted July 24 2004 - 01:47 AM

Thanks for watching my back on the "2nd" Frank. I was about to get all over that as well. I agree with the original poster. I feel some get out of control at times. But, its thier money and it keeps the economy rolling along. Frank, I think you need 2 more sets of B4 pluses to ensure a solid economy. Come on, do your part for the country.

#19 of 65 OFFLINE   Mike Keith

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Posted July 24 2004 - 02:16 AM

Subs are like race cars, as Mark S said the 25Hz barrier is a good start, but there is a lot of content now days well below that, down to 5Hz on some DVD's. Every little bit below the 25Hz region takes a lot more power and displacement to reproduce with some headroom, so if you want to be able to hear/feel Jurassic Launch and the low fundamentals of Black Hawk Down you need serious displacement and extension. The difference between the good 25Hz sub and the latter is like the difference between Pro Stock and AA Top Fuel Dragsters IMO, it takes a lot of overkill to eek that last half octave out with any good effect. Of course I’m talking about reference levels, and I’m one of those overkill junkies with dual 18 subs and tactile Transducers in a smallish room, so I could have brain damage, but it sure is fun to feel you’re chest cavity compress and feel the shockwave of the cannon fire in Master & Commander. You know it’s possible to go low enough and loud enough to resonate your internal organs and cause your bowls to move involuntary, now that’s overkill.

#20 of 65 OFFLINE   steve nn

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Posted July 24 2004 - 02:25 AM

Another thing to consider is to consider all the people that are under woofed. Not my cup of tea but then we are all individuals. Some are only willing to spend a few hundred on their sub or much more on a sub that can be bested very easily. (Most) would be the last to step/flame in and tell him or her, that will just not do. It's their discission. Maybe I ought to trade my old 87 Toyota Camery in with 170,000 miles on it but it's still dependable. Some would not dream of running a car so long. Their logic is understandable though. Geoff don't misunderstand me and think I am saying you are flaming in. You posted a valid question that I know that has been on your mind.




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