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Bass Managment for stereo system?


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31 replies to this topic

#1 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 17 2004 - 11:32 AM

I am getting an integrated amp for a new 2-channel system.

is there a product similar to the Outlaw ICBM but designed for just 2-channel stereo (I'm cheap Posted Image )? Because I need a way to get my bookshelf speakers to work with my subwoofer. Or do I just hook my subwoofer to the pre-amp out/amp in of the integrated?

I'm really confused about how to make it work. Why can't stereo gear have a "sub-out" jack like surround gear?
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#2 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 17 2004 - 11:51 AM

stereo has no LFE channel, so there's really no need for a separate "sub-out".

if your sub has it's own "crossover", and you want to try and cross the speakers, you should use the sub's speaker-level inputs and outputs.

if you're going to run your speakers full-range, then you can use a pre-out on the amp, if you have it, otherwise you can just connect the sub to the same speaker outputs as the speakers, or to a "B" channel, if you have it.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#3 of 32 DaveHo

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Posted June 18 2004 - 01:25 AM

One of Paradigm's X series crossovers should fit the bill. Although it probably won't be much cheaper than a used Outlaw ICBM. Is the sub powered or passive? That will determine which of those you would want.

Paradigm X Series Crossovers

-Dave

#4 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 18 2004 - 05:08 AM

Powered sub
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#5 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 18 2004 - 06:00 AM

what sub?
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#6 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 18 2004 - 07:45 AM

Likely either an Outlaw LFM or HSU STF-3. I already have a SVS in my surround system and want to try a different manufacturer.

I like to plan my system in advance before I spend my hard-earned $$$ Posted Image

System will likely contain: NAD c370 integrated amp, Sony CD changer, Axiom loudspeakers, aformentioned subwoofer.
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#7 of 32 DaveHo

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Posted June 18 2004 - 02:53 PM

Since you can do it all using line level signals, the X30 is what you'd want. Of the three, that one is the most likely to be available on the used market as well. Used ones usually go for $100-$120.

BTW, nice choice on the integrated. I have one of those in my bedroom system paired with a pair of V2 Paradigm Studio 20's and it's a good combination.

-Dave

#8 of 32 Chuck Kent

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Posted June 19 2004 - 12:39 AM

Over the years, I have tinkered with a few different crossovers for use in the various systems I owned.

I've tried the 2 channel passive version that M&K sold for several years, an model Henry Kloss made for Cambridge Soundworks for a limited time, an X-30 from Paradigm, some of the passive in-line filters from F-Mod (you need to have use Y cables for these so that both the highpass and lowpass sections both receive complete signals), and finally, the workhorse Outlaw ICBM.

The only one I was somewhat disappointed in was the Cambridge Soundworks. Henry put the AC to DC converter in the unit where he should have went with a wall wort. So the unit had some hum issues (not bad but not as silent as I wanted.) For the most part, the other units performed well for me. (A note about F-Mods...It's my understanding that the F-Mod route may yield slightly different measured performance than what the filters are rated. This is apparently due to the impedence of the circuit they are inserted into.)

I am now using the ICBM in a multi-channel system. It seems quite transparent to my ears and is very flexible. IMO, if you can afford it, go for the ICBM, even if you don't plan on using for more than 2 channel for the foreseeable future. It will work great for you now and you will have a flexible tool available for other systems you might use in the future...

#9 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 19 2004 - 04:29 AM

garrett, is there some reason you wouldn't want to use the sub's crossover?

unless your speakers are not suited to the fixed high-pass filter of 80-100Hz that most subs have, then using the sub's crossover is, by far, your most inexpensive alternative.

i'm not sure why some are so keen to recommend you get an external crossover, when you probably don't need it.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#10 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 19 2004 - 06:24 AM

It was my undersstanding that Outlaw and/or HSU subs do not have RCA-line inputs, only a catchall LFE input (and no output to send the bass-free signal to the integrated amp) and speaker level inputs which would make the amp half of the c370 kinda useless(since the speakers would be powered by the sub, no?)
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#11 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 19 2004 - 09:03 AM

Quote:
It was my undersstanding that Outlaw and/or HSU subs do not have RCA-line inputs, only a catchall LFE input
http://store1.yimg.c...ubs_1799_374770
Posted Image

the hsu has left and right pre-level inputs, the outlaw doesn't. with the outlaw, you'd use a Y-adapter to combine the l/r pre-outs from the amp to connect to the single sub input, so that's not a "problem".

Quote:
(and no output to send the bass-free signal to the integrated amp)
not sure what you mean by that. you won't send any "output" from the sub to the amp.

Quote:
and speaker level inputs which would make the amp half of the c370 kinda useless(since the speakers would be powered by the sub, no?)
no, that's not the way it works. the stereo's amp still powers the speakers. the sub will never power your speakers, unless we're talking about something like a bose setup.

again, if you want to cross your speakers and unless your speakers are not suited to the ~80-100Hz fixed high-pass filter (i think) that these subs have, then using the sub's crossover is fine. there's no need for an external xover.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#12 of 32 DaveHo

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Posted June 20 2004 - 02:19 PM

Huh? You can't just use a Y to combine the left & right line level signals then send it to the sub. You need to first isolate the individual channels from the preamp. And again there is no high pass output from either of these subs unless you are using speaker level inputs, which isn't what Garrett wants to do. He doesn't want to run the mains full range. Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, there is some really bad misinformation here.

Garrett, there is an X30 available in the For Sale forum right now. I have no affiliation with the seller.

X30

-Dave

#13 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 20 2004 - 09:39 PM

Quote:
Huh? You can't just use a Y to combine the left & right line level signals then send it to the sub.
sure you can. explain why not?

Quote:
You need to first isolate the individual channels from the preamp.
what's that mean?

Quote:
And again there is no high pass output from either of these subs unless you are using speaker level inputs, which isn't what Garrett wants to do.
it's exactly what he probably wants to do.

Quote:
Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, there is some really bad misinformation here.
i guess you misunderstood what i'm saying, because i gave him no "bad information". read my posts again, carefully.


like i said, unless his main speakers are not suited to the ~80 to 100Hz high-pass filter that those subs will have, garrett can cross his speakers fine with the internal crossover that either of those subs have. he never said he was unwilling to use a speaker-level connection. if you read his posts you'll see that he didn't even understand what was possible with the subs.

recommending he get an external crossover, when he probably doesn't need it for what he's trying to do, is silly. he doesn't need it. i don't think he's necessarily trying to build an audiophile-quality system.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#14 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 21 2004 - 03:44 AM

I'm sorry. I'm a little clueless here.

My Understanding:

*If I connect a subwoofer to the inegrated amp using the speaker cables, then the Integrated amp will power the subwoofer and "lose" that power en route to the speakers.

*If I connect the Integrated to the subwoofer with the RCA cables, then the bass material is filtered-out before it is sent back to the amp for powering the speakers. However neither the Outlaw or HSU have RCA outputs.

Isn't this why the the integrated has a "preamp-out, power amp in" set of hookups on the back?
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#15 of 32 RobWil

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Posted June 21 2004 - 04:16 AM

Quote:
Isn't this why the the integrated has a "preamp-out, power amp in" set of hookups on the back?


Those are typically for connecting either A) an external amplifier or B)an external pre-amp.
If you use the speaker line inputs on the sub, the sub amp still powers the sub and the integrated still powers the speakers, same as using the RCA line inputs.
that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

#16 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 21 2004 - 05:18 AM

garrett, yes, no offense, i'm sorry, but you really are a little clueless, here, just as i've suspected.

Quote:
*If I connect a subwoofer to the inegrated amp using the speaker cables, then the Integrated amp will power the subwoofer and "lose" that power en route to the speakers.
no. the sub's amp powers the sub and ONLY THE SUB no matter how it's connected; whether line-level or speaker-level, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
*If I connect the Integrated to the subwoofer with the RCA cables, then the bass material is filtered-out before it is sent back to the amp for powering the speakers. However neither the Outlaw or HSU have RCA outputs.
NO! nothing is EVER sent "back to the amp" from the sub! they both have rca INPUTS, which is what you might need, not outputs.

your integrated amp will power your speakers no matter how you connect the subwoofer. if you want to use the sub's built-in crossover (really a high-pass filter) and cross your speakers, then you connect the amp's speaker output terminals to the sub's speaker input terminals and you connect the sub's speaker output terminals to the speakers' input terminals. the sub will be powered by the sub's amp and the speakers by the integrated amp. if you don't want to crossover your speakers, then you'd just connect them to your integrated amp, normally, and you would use an rca line-level (aka pre-amp level) connection for the subwoofer. the sub's rca inputs, whether mono or l+r are inconsequential as you're probably going to crossover your speakers and use speaker-level connection to the sub, anyway.

read my posts in your thread carefully. i already answered many of your questions.

btw, i don't mean to sound harsh in this thread, but firm. DO NOT BUY AN EXTERNAL CROSSOVER. YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED IT FOR WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO. don't make this more difficult than it is. what you are trying to do is not that difficult nor uncommon. it's the whole reason subs have speaker-level connections in the first place.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#17 of 32 DaveHo

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Posted June 18 2004 - 02:53 PM

Since you can do it all using line level signals, the X30 is what you'd want. Of the three, that one is the most likely to be available on the used market as well. Used ones usually go for $100-$120.

BTW, nice choice on the integrated. I have one of those in my bedroom system paired with a pair of V2 Paradigm Studio 20's and it's a good combination.

-Dave

#18 of 32 Chuck Kent

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Posted June 19 2004 - 12:39 AM

Over the years, I have tinkered with a few different crossovers for use in the various systems I owned.

I've tried the 2 channel passive version that M&K sold for several years, an model Henry Kloss made for Cambridge Soundworks for a limited time, an X-30 from Paradigm, some of the passive in-line filters from F-Mod (you need to have use Y cables for these so that both the highpass and lowpass sections both receive complete signals), and finally, the workhorse Outlaw ICBM.

The only one I was somewhat disappointed in was the Cambridge Soundworks. Henry put the AC to DC converter in the unit where he should have went with a wall wort. So the unit had some hum issues (not bad but not as silent as I wanted.) For the most part, the other units performed well for me. (A note about F-Mods...It's my understanding that the F-Mod route may yield slightly different measured performance than what the filters are rated. This is apparently due to the impedence of the circuit they are inserted into.)

I am now using the ICBM in a multi-channel system. It seems quite transparent to my ears and is very flexible. IMO, if you can afford it, go for the ICBM, even if you don't plan on using for more than 2 channel for the foreseeable future. It will work great for you now and you will have a flexible tool available for other systems you might use in the future...

#19 of 32 ScottCHI

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Posted June 19 2004 - 04:29 AM

garrett, is there some reason you wouldn't want to use the sub's crossover?

unless your speakers are not suited to the fixed high-pass filter of 80-100Hz that most subs have, then using the sub's crossover is, by far, your most inexpensive alternative.

i'm not sure why some are so keen to recommend you get an external crossover, when you probably don't need it.
"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."

#20 of 32 Garrett Lundy

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Posted June 19 2004 - 06:24 AM

It was my undersstanding that Outlaw and/or HSU subs do not have RCA-line inputs, only a catchall LFE input (and no output to send the bass-free signal to the integrated amp) and speaker level inputs which would make the amp half of the c370 kinda useless(since the speakers would be powered by the sub, no?)
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."


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