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SVS PB2-ISD vs Monitor Audio FB210 Please Help


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#1 of 148 OFFLINE   Troy Swanson

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Posted June 03 2004 - 01:47 PM

Hello everyone,

I have been searching for a while to replace my current Klipsch LF-10. My HT room is approx 25x25x10 with openings into other rooms. I thought I had my search narrowed down to the SVS PB2-ISD, still not sure and would appreciate some help. Thank you!!

#2 of 148 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted June 03 2004 - 02:01 PM

Troy - You have a 6250 ^3 foot room... That is pretty large. I would say the PB2-ISD will do well there, and is likely as "small" in output as you would want to go with a subwoofer...
Craig Chase

#3 of 148 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted June 03 2004 - 11:41 PM

FB 210 Specifications:

Power: 250 watt continuous MOS FET
Woofers: Two 10"
Phase Adjustment: 0-180
Extension: 25Hz -3dB
Weight: 55 lbs
Dimensions: 20" x 14" x 14"

PB2-ISD Specifications:

Power: 600 watt continuous digital BASH
Woofers: Two 12"
Phase Adjustment: 0-180
Extension: Variable Tune 16, 20, 25 Hz
Weight: 115 lbs
Dimensions: 18" x 25" x 28"

Competition? Hardly. Go with the proven performer.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#4 of 148 OFFLINE   ross ish

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Posted June 04 2004 - 11:40 AM

I compared the monitor audio to a sunfire jr. the jr simply outgunned it. the monitor audio is fine for music but comes up short for home theater. The monitor audio's bass extension is limited...25hz is a real stretch. When watching a dvd, the monitor had some boom, but nothing really down low. The monitor also ran out of steam really quick during demanding bass scenes. For demo used the THX sampler dvd.

#5 of 148 OFFLINE   Troy Swanson

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Posted June 04 2004 - 01:15 PM

THANK YOU FOR THE INFO

#6 of 148 OFFLINE   Robert_Dufresne

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Posted June 05 2004 - 08:03 AM

Troy

Remember that this site is sponsored by SVS so take it with a grain of salt.Posted Image
"and if my grand-mother had wheels she'd be a wagon" Montgomery Scott Eng. USS Enterprise

#7 of 148 OFFLINE   Nicholas R

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Posted June 05 2004 - 08:11 AM

Quote:
Remember that this site is sponsored by SVS so take it with a grain of salt

Frankly I hate the SVS subs. The rabid, pack mentality of the fans doesn't help either.

#8 of 148 OFFLINE   Robert M H

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Posted June 05 2004 - 10:31 AM

Can you qualify why you hate SVS subs Nicholas?

#9 of 148 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted June 05 2004 - 10:34 AM

Quote:
Can you qualify why you hate SVS subs Nicholas?

It's obvious. Because of the rabid, pack mentality of the fans. I hate the Lakers: same reason.Posted Image Well, that and I'm a San Antonio Spurs fan, Gee Noh Bee Lee!!!!

#10 of 148 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted June 05 2004 - 10:50 AM

Hating subwoofers... wow. I cannot imagine a thing causing someone to actually hate. Nicholas, I feel for you. This hobby is supposed to be fun. I feel terrible that some people have driven you to the point of hate.
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#11 of 148 OFFLINE   Robert M H

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Posted June 05 2004 - 10:58 AM

Thanks for the response Nicholas! I'll be sure not to buy an SVS sub based on your reasoning. Thanks for the heads up. Posted Image

#12 of 148 OFFLINE   Nicholas R

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Posted June 05 2004 - 11:02 AM

I much prefer the REL and the older Mirage servo, force forward bipolar ones . More musical, the Mirage certainly goes every bit as low and more importantly it let's the music through better with just as much slam. The SVS all sound like they need a swift kick in the arse. Now amongst affordable ones I do prefer most of the SVS models to for instance a PW2200 a good sub in it's own right but slow and boomy. I would certainly take a higher end older one over the newer ones. The Mirage 210 for instance that WSR uses or used as a reference could not be built nowadays for under $3000 I wouldn't think. Back when music was the main focus the subs were better. One man's opinion folks. SVS is vastly overrated.
And Robert I could care a less what you buy. Whatever floats your boat you know?

#13 of 148 OFFLINE   Jeff Gatie

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Posted June 05 2004 - 01:21 PM

Quote:
Remember that this site is sponsored by SVS so take it with a grain of salt


As a person who has posted here in favor of SVS subs in the past, I only have one question for SVS- Where's my f'in check?!!

Seriously, SVS sponsoring this site should and does not effect anyone's opinion and I've never heard of someone with a legitimate (notice the word 'legitimate')critique of SVS being censored. Given the above logic, the only opinions that should be taken "with a grain of salt" are Ron and Packy's.

#14 of 148 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted June 05 2004 - 04:32 PM

Nicholas... Quoting from "Rock Star" Sure adds to your credibility. The same WSR that used the Mirage in the 90's also gave a rave to the SVS PB2+ ... and having done sound for bands, including some great Jazz bands, I find that SVS makes great subwoofers, along with Hsu, Velodyne, Rocket, Servo Drive...and others.

So I will make this simple. It is obvious you have zero interest in anything but tearing down a good company.

Let me guess, though. You have yet to compare any SVS, Hsu.... etc... to your beloved, yet obselete designs under blind testing.

People like you are a reason the high end has been hurt over the last 20 years.
Craig Chase

#15 of 148 OFFLINE   JohnSmith

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Posted June 05 2004 - 07:07 PM

Nicholas- I own a Rel Storm and a SVS 20-39 PC Plus cylinder. The SVS is superior in every way (well apart the Rel is solid, MDF)..

The Rel's built-in xover is leaky as hell (when sending it a full-range signal). You can hear voices, and practically treble.

The SVS on the other hand has a higher quality xover. No treble is heard.

Port noise- when pushed a little bit (or even at low volumes with certain material) the Rel exhibits port noise (chuffing) and driver distortion. My room is only 4m x 4m and it cannot keep up. It sounds bad. Rel is calibrated. I think it's because the Rel lacks a sub sonic filter, that and the inefficient design.

SVS Port noise- none. The only slight port noise is when I've re-tuned it to 16hz, even then it still goes louder and plays cleaner than the Rel could ever do. Port noise & audible distortion is lower than the Rel at any given volume.

LF ability- the SVS in 20hz tune (and when re-plugged lower in more so) plays far lower than the Rel.

Output- no comparison; I can go near the limits of the Rel quite easily. No chance with the SVS.

Clean bass- because the Rel struggles it doesn't sound clean, whereas the SVS is still "invisible" through the sound-stage. Whereas in action scenes the Rel "farting" is incredibly noticeable.

Price- the Rel cost more than the SVS.

Because of the limited LF handling & output I had to use my THX pre-amp's subwoofer peak function to protect the Rel Volt driver. I've got it disabled with the SVS :-)

I can understand your apprehension of all this "hype" but it's well deserved. It's the same on the UK newsgroups-people don't have a clue about true sub-bass, a Rel Quake parping away is "fantastic" bass to some people.


Oh I know someone with dual Storm III's. He UPGRADED to a single SVS PC Plus subwoofer- yup a single SVS subwoofer at £700 was superior to £1600 dual Rel's.

My M&K dealer has heard my SVS, and was flabbergasted of it's performance. He rates it better than his £2100 MX-350! Oh and my dealer is honest- usually he'll admit a high-priced item in stock is rubbish, and point me to something cheaper on his shelves.

I just wish all salesmen are like that :-)

Perhaps if you've bought a SVS and thought it poor in performance you have a say. Until I bought one I did not say anything negative about them. Plump out £600-£700 and see for yourself.Posted Image

#16 of 148 OFFLINE   Nicholas R

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Posted June 05 2004 - 10:45 PM

Quote:
Nicholas... Quoting from "Rock Star" Sure adds to your credibility. The same WSR that used the Mirage in the 90's also gave a rave to the SVS PB2+ ... and having done sound for bands, including some great Jazz bands, I find that SVS makes great subwoofers, along with Hsu, Velodyne, Rocket, Servo Drive...and others.

So I will make this simple. It is obvious you have zero interest in anything but tearing down a good company.

Let me guess, though. You have yet to compare any SVS, Hsu.... etc... to your beloved, yet obselete designs under blind testing.

People like you are a reason the high end has been hurt over the last 20 years.

Craig firstly take a deep breath and calm down, these are subwoofers not someone who doesn't like your children. If you think I am "tearing down a great company" because I, after extensive testing and comparisons, happen to prefer another product then I question if there's any point in even responding to you. People are entitled to their opinions and gee Craig sometimes they may differ from yours. Golly go figure eh?
The fact that they haven't improved on an older design shows just how advanced the Mirage was/is. Nobody, as I said, could build this for under at minimum $3000. It was and is a n absolutely stunning subwoofer and while I have extensively compared many company's products to it in my home I highly doubt you have done the same with the 210. If you haven't then you really don't have a valid opinion do you?
I began in high end over 30 years ago working for the very first Linn dealer in North Americas when people were POSITIVE that turntables all sounded the same. I am a professional recording engineer and have probably owned more products over the years than you have owned socks.

As one who has spent multiple thousands on high end audio and who has comtinually pushed the gospel of proper sound reproduction in the home I take offense with your last statement.
As I said very clearly there are a number of subs which are quicker, more tuneful and more acuurate to what is on the recording than your beloved SVS. That's opinion, it was come to after great thought and time, and you disagree. That's fine but you needn't post in such an insulting way. When someone posts with such blind adoration for a company it truly makes a sensible and calm debate almost impossible.
I'm glad you like your SVS since that's what this hobby is all about. I happened to not like them and the sun will still rise in your world today.

#17 of 148 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted June 06 2004 - 01:14 AM

Nicholas, You are telling me to calm down? Interesting words coming from a "man" using vulgar terms with others on line. Let us look at some facts.

In 1995, The Mirage 210 was a decent subwoofer. It was about $1500 without a crossover. It used twin 10 inch drivers (servo controlled) and a 250 watt amplifier. I did audition one in my home for 30 days from a local vendor who carried both PSB and Mirage. I also tried twin PSB Subsonic III's ... and ended up with the PSB's. They were just as good with music, and were more powerful for less money. Since I did have one here for 30 days might qualify me as having an opinion.

And, As I always do, the listening done between the Mirage and PSB was blind.

For performance, John E. Johnson did a thorough test of the 210 for "Secrets" in 1995. There are several reasons I call it obsolete.

1. It is no longer made.
2. Its objective performance is tepid by today's standards : Max output at 16 Hz/one meter was 95 dB, and 24 Hz at 96 dB. It would require four Mirage 210's to match the single PB2+ from the company you "HATE". This info is readily available for anyone to see, ecoustics archived the article from "Secrets".
3. For sound quality up to its limits, it is very good, but nothing special. Here are some examples, besides the SVS, of subwoofers under $3000 that will easily best the 210.

Twin Rocket UFW-10's... $999
Twin Hsu VTF-3's ...... $1398
VMPS Larger Subwoofer ....$1500 with amplifier

As for my saying you are one of the reasons the high end has lost luster over the years. It is from your attitude. Who wants to put up with personal attacks and admitted hatred. Too many audiophiles like you attack other's products, and put down what other people own. THAT drives people away from this hobby. You will notice noone here has attacked Mirage. The only area I see people having a problem with you is your attitude, both towards people like Frank, and companies like SVS.

And at least quote me accurately, I said your were tearing down a good company... not a great one.

As for all the equipment you have owned. Good for you. Why don't you post all this equipment, along with listening impressions. THAT would be interesting.
Craig Chase

#18 of 148 OFFLINE   Nicholas R

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Posted June 06 2004 - 02:04 AM

It is no longer made because it would be too expensive and the main reason was the lawsuit brought by Bob Carver which was later won by Mirage, You may want to better check your facts before making assertions. The original LS3/5A is no longer made nor is the Spendor BC1. By your "thinking" these must surely be obsolete as well? By the same token the JR149's superlative midrange must be obsolete and wrong as well since it's been out of production lo these 26 years.

The PSB were not even close to being in the same league. It appears that boom, output and rattle are the things you treasure the most. They are the ones that BOTHER me the most.

Your sense of what is vulgar, of course one must hope it only applies when you "think" your company is being attacked, is laughable at best, sad at the worst.
No where have I "attacked" SVS and I suggest you need a reality check that these are speakers and God forbid but people are going to disagree with you. Get used to it as your life will be much easier for you.

I have owned hundreds of products and to list them would be ludicrous. If you are interested in my opinions on certain pieces feel free to ask.
As for my auditioning I have a rather unique advantage. I engineered and mixed all the music I use. I know exactly what is on the masters and how it should sound. The SVS colours what I know for a fact is on the tapes as we laid down in the studio. Is the Mirage perfect? Hell no BUT out of probably 75 subs I have auditioned in my system it remains the absolute closest to what I know we laid down in the studio. That my friend is the true litmus test.
Do I have this obsession with the Mirage as many seem to have with SVS? Hell no. I would gladly replace it if and when something better comes along. ALL I care about is the quality of the reproduction, not what name is on the grille and you'd do well to do the same.
Good day to you and happy listening.

#19 of 148 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted June 06 2004 - 02:55 AM

As a matter of fact, The LS3/5A is obselete. If someone introduced a mini-monitor for $2000 today with a good mid-range and a 100 Hz bass boost, it would fail miserably in the market. The LS3/5A would run about $2000, when adjusted for inflation. It was a good design in its day, and yes, I have heard them.

The LS3/5A was most recently produced by Harbeth (for those who are not aware, the LS3/5A was a very specific monitor produced by several companies over the past 30 years, under license by the BBC... it was not a company specific loudspeaker) along with the Monitor 20.

The Monitor 20 has supplanted the LS3/5A due to a "less coloured" midrange. That is a quote from Harbeth, not me.

Does obselete mean bad ? No, The 1975 Porsche 911 is obselete compared to the 2004, but is still a classic.

I am a bit unclear what assertions I was making. I quoted directly from John E. Johnson's article on the 210. At the time, it was a very good subwoofer. I am not sure why placing twin 10 inch drivers in a sealed enclosure would be too difficult today. The newer 200 subwoofer from Mirage is a similar bi-polar configuration using twin 8 inch drivers in a vented cabinet.

As for your opinion that all I like is boom and rattle, again it is YOU that attacks what another person owns, and how that person listens.

I currently do not own any of Paul Barton's products (I have owned many in the past), but your saying his company produces "Boom, Output and rattle" is pathetic. I guess his lifetime as a musician and 30 years of speaker manufacturer is not quite to your standards.

SVS is not MY company. I own one SVS product, the B4+. I also currently own 8 other subwoofers and all are functioning in different systems in our house. The B4+ represents less than 5% of the actual dollar amount in our systems.

For a music reference, I attend at least one live jazz or orchestra weekly, sometimes as many as 3. Until someone comes up with a better reference than live music, I will use it.

YOU are the person who "HATES" SVS, but my saying you were vulgar had to do with your "big dick" comment, not your hatred for SVS. Personally, I think Mirage is a very good company. Perhaps I am not the one who needs to realize these are just speakers. Afterall, what have I said about anything you own that could be considered disparaging?

It is too bad they were involved in a lawsuit with Carver... and I am glad they won. It is safe to say Bob Carver does tend to stir things up.
Craig Chase

#20 of 148 OFFLINE   Nicholas R

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Posted June 06 2004 - 03:07 AM

Agreed about Bob. I have known Paul for quite a number of years and like the majority of his products of the last 10 years. His speakers were in the beginning rather awful but he has progressed to the point where a speaker such as the Stratus Gold is a rather wonderful transducer of music. His sub however are another matter. It's one area he has never been particularly good at and I think in cofidence he would admit that it's not his strong suit.
The PSB Subsonic III was an absolute mess and disaster. His latest offerings other than the 5i are not much better. The 3 was a truly unlistenable product.
As for live music that is wonderful. I attend most concerts at RTH and of course I still do a lot of recordings in venues ranging from studios, to churches to God forbid the ACC.
The Spendor 3/5 is a natural descendant of the 5a moreso than any other product, but even it does not get the midrange quite as right at the Gold label Rogers variant did.
Boom and rattle is how I feel about the products NOT an attack on you.
BTW the bump in the 5a is at 120 not 100.

As for the newer Mirage subs they are even close to being in the same ballpark and API knows this.


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