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Upscaling/HDef DVD Player merged thread


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#1 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 17 2004 - 12:59 AM

Moderator addition to this post...
Quote:
This is now the official thread for discussion on the various upconverting HD DVD players and the upcoming Hdef dvd players. For specific ongoing discussion on either the LG 7832 or Zenith 318 upconverting dvd players, please refer to this thread here.... Zenith DVB 318 & LG 7832 DVD merged thread

_________________________________________________


This is the DVD player that WILL arrive late this week. I got it at eCOST.com for 48 bucks:

http://www.jvc.com/p....ve=true&page=2


This is the DVD player that I am borrowing:
http://sale-depot.ne...tem/B0000CEJUO/

This is the TV I just bought for 1356 after web special/rebates:
http://www.circuitci....&oid=80976&m=0

_____________

Here is my prob. In the DVD options, I have component ENABLED and 16x9 ENABLED. That does it for video out options on the DVD player.

On the TV options, there is a SD(Standard Definition) and HD(High Definition) setting, but it's grayed out (can't change it). And it's on SD.

This means that it may be playing the movie at only 480i or 720, right? For the full 1080i that I want, it would have to be HD in the menu.

There are no other options on the BORROWED DVD player, so I assume that all you can get...

My question is, on the JVC DVD player coming soon above, will I be able to get full HD res?



ps-My buddy has a 47 Panny HDTV kind like this one with a Toshiba DVD player hooked up with component and he gets his HD option on his TV just fine.

Please give me some insight guys... I'll appreciate it.

#2 of 546 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted May 17 2004 - 01:20 AM

Unless there is some unusual skimping, you are getting the best you can from DVD.

As far as I know the TV is always displaying 1080 (1080i in terms of scan lines). Actually 960 (960i) for DVD is just as good as 1080 and in some ways better, but is rare and makes the TV more complex.

If the player is feeding in 480i, that is converted to 480p and (if the TV is not doing 960i on the screen) the 480p is converted to 540p.

If the player is feeding in 480p, the 480p is used as-is for 960i on the screen or converted to 540p for 1080i on the screen.

In terms of subject matter from DVD, the vertical resolution is still 480 no matter how good the equipment is.

Video hints:
http://members.aol.c...ynejr/video.htm
.

#3 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 17 2004 - 01:34 AM

Wow, thats a lot of info on that page. I just read through some of it...

So, do I have everything set up the correct way with the current, borrowed DVD player? Meaning, the TV will say SD(standard Definition) because of the DVD player limitation?

Will the JVC player I hook up later this week display more lines or make the TV say HD?

#4 of 546 OFFLINE   JimmyK

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Posted May 17 2004 - 01:36 AM

DVD as it exists now is NOT a High Definition format. It is Standard Definition (480i/480p). Therefore, it makes sense that your TV will not let you select that option for DVD viewing.

Now, there are DVD players that will upconvert the Standard Definition (SD) DVD signal (480i/480p) to a High Definition signal (HD) (720p/1080i). However, neither player you mentioned has this capability.

Keep in mind that upconverting SD to HD does NOT give you a true High Definition picture. A DVD would have to be encoded with a HD signal to begin with to get a true HD picture, and like I mentioned above, today's DVD format is NOT HD.

The players you mentioned do offer progressive scan (480p). Selecting this feature on the player may give you a better picture or it may not. It depends on whether your TV or DVD player is better at changing the interlaced signal (480i) to progressive (480p). Try it both ways and see which you prefer.

BTW, setting your DVD player to 16x9 is correct for your TV.

Hope this helped. Posted Image

JimmyK

#5 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 17 2004 - 01:41 AM

Thanks JimmyK! Good info.

1) So did I order the correct JVC DVD player for my setup?

2) Do I need to get a DVD player with HDMI for my TV to display the most clear picture? Or will this JVC DVD player work?

#6 of 546 OFFLINE   Don_Berg

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Posted May 17 2004 - 07:45 AM

DVD resolution is 720x480 maximum (480i or 480p) - there is no HD-DVD format yet. The DVD players you list are progressive DVD players so they can output 480p if you enable it in the setup menus, it defaults to 480i. Some HDTVs support a native 480p mode as well as 1080i, many also accept 720p (this is also an HD format) but convert internally to 1080i. Most Panasonic HDTVs however do not accept 720p format at all. Some HDTVs convert 480i/480p to 960i. There are a few newer model DVD players that can upconvert DVD to 720p or 1080i (though this is not true HD since the source material is still lower resolution) like the new Zenith model for $200+. The DVD players you are listing are lower end models under $70, so you must not be in the market for the more expensive models. For top-rated quality I'd recommend a model with a Faroudja de-interlacer since those low-end models have a poor de-interlacer. One of the best is the Panasonic XP30. You don't need DVI/HDMI for DVD, thats only slightly better for fixed pixel displays (like plasma or DLP) and with an HD source.

#7 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 17 2004 - 08:04 AM

Well, has anyone watched a $200+ DVD player up against a $70 on on the same TV? I want to know if it's a major difference.

#8 of 546 OFFLINE   Don_Berg

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Posted May 17 2004 - 08:39 AM

Yes I upgraded from a JVC DVD player similar to the one you list to a Panasonic XP30 (with Faroudja de-interlacer) and it was a significant improvement. Much sharper picture and higher quality/resolution picture from video-based titles. Many DVDs have poor flags and the JVC would comb on scenes with poor flags since its a flag-reader, the Faroujda de-interlacer ingores the flags and de-interlaces correctly in all cases.

Lots of info you should read here for more information:
http://www.hometheat....e-10-2000.html

#9 of 546 OFFLINE   Steve Schaffer

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Posted May 17 2004 - 08:57 AM

The JVC you've chosen will work just fine unless you need to play a significant number of video-based dvds.

If you have a lot of tv series compilations of comedies originally shot on tape, get the Panny. If not, the JVC will work just fine and save a lot of money.

Even with video based titles the difference is minimal at most--just force the JVC into Video mode with one press of the button on the remote and you're good to go.

The JVC has a number of features like pillarboxing for 4/3 material and the ability to scale non-anamorphic widescreen dvds, along with the ability to calibrate picture parameters in the player which the XP-30 lacks. I find the Gamma adjustment alone, which brings out shadow detail without turning blacks grey to be more valuable than the Faroudja's ability to play special features sections without an occasional split-second of combing.

I own both a Faroudja chipped Panny and a JVC, and that split second combing during transition from video taped interveiws and film-based clips during special features documentaries is the only time I observe any benefit whatsoever from the Faroudja chip. On the other hand, with the Panny I must watch all 4/3 material with annoying gray bars on the sides because it won't do the pillarboxing the JVC can do. Non-anamorphic widescreen dvds must be zoomed by the tv when using the Panny resulting in a very much inferior picture compared to the scaling on the JVC.

The Zenith DVB 318 will scale non-anamorphic widescreen dvds, does have Faroudja de-interlacing, won't pillarbox. Best Buy lists this as "coming soon" for $259. It's been out for a while and if you can find an in-stock unit anywhere it will upconvert to 1080i over both component and dvi outputs. The component upconvert is being eliminated and most places are sold out until July or August, at which time the player will only upconvert via dvi.
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#10 of 546 OFFLINE   Page Ferrell

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Posted May 17 2004 - 09:10 AM

Quote:
The component upconvert is being eliminated and most places are sold out until July or August, at which time the player will only upconvert via dvi.


Hi Steve S. Is this true that the component upconvert is being eliminated? I thought this was only theory and conjecture. Do you know this for a fact? If so, sources? Links?

thx, Page

#11 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 17 2004 - 09:53 AM

My buddies DVD player is the Toshiba SD-4700. This is why his said HD instead of SD, correct.

He paid 299 2 years ago for it. It's still 260...

#12 of 546 OFFLINE   Cameron Yee

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Posted May 17 2004 - 10:19 AM

Quote:
My buddies DVD player is the Toshiba SD-4700. This is why his said HD instead of SD, correct.


There are only a handful of players that upconvert to 720p and/or 1080i. Toshiba JUST released one, but from what I've heard the model has been recalled and many of those who have tried it have returned it. I'm not sure what the Panasonic is interpreting as "HD," but the 4700 is only capable of 480p despite it's 200+ price. The price of 260.00 is likely for its ability to play the DVD-Audio format. Still, this is not a bargain when compared to the Pioneer 563A which plays both SACD and DVD-A (how well, is another issue up for debate).

To my knowledge these are the players that do the upconversion to 720p/1080i:

Zenith DVB318
Bravo D1/D2 (via DVI only)
Momitsu v880
Lite-On LVD-2001 (discontinued)
Norcent 501 (clone of the Lite-On)
LG Model??? (only available in Canada)
Samsung 931/941

Most people who give these players a try like the upconversion. I myself have the Bravo D1 and will personally never go back to plain 480p if it can be helped.
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#13 of 546 OFFLINE   Steve Schaffer

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Posted May 17 2004 - 03:38 PM

Very long thread on the Zenith DVB-318 over at AVS. These were released a couple of months ago with upconversion available over component and available for sale at a couple of e-tailers who report that current stock or immediately upcoming stock will be the last of these until late July/early August. The elimination of upconversion via component is the most logical reason for the 2 month delay, though not cast in stone.

Apparently there's an agreement between the dvd consortium and the MPAA to not allow upconversion via component which only is in force in the US market, hence no player built by a dvd consortium member is allowed to be sold in the US with upconversion past 480p in the US. Lite-on is not a consortium member. LG, parent company of Zenith, apparently is a member but has sold the 318B under the LG name in Canada for a while and neglected to eliminate the component upconversion on the Zenith branded version for sale in the US.

I've ordered a 318B from a source which says they will ship from a batch they will receive in about 7 days, which should be ahead of the production pause coming up and thus should still have upconversion via component. My set doesn't have dvi inputs, so I'm hoping for the best.

If the upconversion is similar in quality to that of my LG mfg HD-capable DirecTV box, it should be better than 480p.
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#14 of 546 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted May 18 2004 - 01:12 AM

A disadvantage that some folks may run into with a DVD player that upconverts to 720p or 1080i -- The TV may lock into 16:9 mode with those inputs.

Then it is necessary for the player to have compensating features such as pillarboxing and zoom.

You might want to hold off doing anything about this situation until you actually see some of the deficiencies of letting the TV upconvert the incoming 480i/480p to 1080i which you have right now. The added picture quality of having the player upconvert and send 1080i to the TV might not be worth the extra cost.
.

#15 of 546 OFFLINE   Page Ferrell

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Posted May 18 2004 - 01:32 AM

Steve Schaffer. Yes, I know all about that long thread over at the AVS forum...I've followed it carefully. I also already got a zenith dvb-318, waiting in the wings for my new 34" HDTV monitor, so either way, I'll have the 1081i upconversion over component. However, to be sure, there's been no official word of any kind on the upconversion over component being eliminated, right? Thus far, it's folks merely speculating, I believe.

Also, the store in Pennsylvania, Gochnauer's, still has stock on these units and is shipping them.

- Page

#16 of 546 OFFLINE   JimmyK

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Posted May 18 2004 - 05:23 AM

Quote:
Apparently there's an agreement between the dvd consortium and the MPAA to not allow upconversion via component which only is in force in the US market, hence no player built by a dvd consortium member is allowed to be sold in the US with upconversion past 480p in the US. Lite-on is not a consortium member. LG, parent company of Zenith, apparently is a member but has sold the 318B under the LG name in Canada for a while and neglected to eliminate the component upconversion on the Zenith branded version for sale in the US.


Why do I have the awful feeling that when HD DVD does come out, HD resolutions will not be available via component connections. I'm guessing that the majority of us who have purchased HDTVs so far do not have DVI connnections, so I'm concerned we will be SOL!

JimmyK

#17 of 546 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

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Posted May 18 2004 - 05:26 AM

Why do I have the awful feeling that when HD DVD does come out, HD resolutions will not be available via component connections. I'm guessing that the majority of us who have purchased HDTVs so far do not have DVI connnections, so I'm concerned we will be SOL!


When will true HD players come out?

Good thing mine came with HDMIPosted Image I am happy.

#18 of 546 OFFLINE   Don_Berg

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Posted May 18 2004 - 06:49 AM

Most HDTV displays force FULL model display only with 720p or 1080i HD input. The Zenith upconverting model doesn't format 4:3 titles for proper pillarbox display with a 16:9 HD display, so its a poor choice for mixed DVD titles. Most special features on DVDs are in 4:3 format by the way as well as many TV episode box sets. The Zenith has sold out their first production batch and the resellers aren't getting any more until August and the units at that time most likely will have 1080i component output disabled, leaving only DVI for 1080i. True HD-DVD players are several years away and then it will take even longer for a significant number of true HD-DVDs titles to be available.

#19 of 546 OFFLINE   Page Ferrell

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Posted May 18 2004 - 08:29 AM

Quote:
The Zenith has sold out their first production batch and the resellers aren't getting any more until August and the units at that time most likely will have 1080i component output disabled, leaving only DVI for 1080i.


Don_Berg, correction. Two retailers, Gochnauer's and Expert Entertainment Electronics, claim to have the zenith's available for shipping. I'm not sure WWE is the only retailer out there for which you should be basing your conclusions. You also infer that the upconversion to 1080i over component will likely be eliminated, like Mr. Schaffer, above, without any official confirmation. What is your source for the above information?

Thanks, Page

#20 of 546 OFFLINE   BenC

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Posted May 18 2004 - 08:45 AM

Hi,

Are there any disadvantage of dvi compared with component? Is it because the cable is more pricey than the component cables?

I've read alot of good reviews on the panny xp30 and that you can only get them on ebay. Is there a newer model eventually coming out that will be as good from panny sometime in the near future?
Thanks in advance


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