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Thread from the Axiom forums, "Hsu STF-2, Hsu VTF-3, and SVS PB1+"


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184 replies to this topic

#1 of 185 Matt_Smi

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Posted May 27 2004 - 05:44 PM

I thought that this was an interesting thread, someone heard a Hsu STF-2, Hsu VTF-3, and SVS PB1+ and commented on each, yes it is one person’s opinion and there was no testing, just casual listening. But I wondered if anyone had read it, and thought that I would post it. BTW his post with comments are at the bottom of the first page.

http://www.axiomaudi....=&fpart=1&vc=1

#2 of 185 steve nn

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Posted May 28 2004 - 08:33 AM

Very nice read Matt. Very respectful and it's nice to see.
Thanks for the link.

#3 of 185 Phil Tomaskovic

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Posted May 28 2004 - 08:38 AM

I was trying to tell from the picture of the PB1+ what finish that was? Guessing the natural blonde, but from the little sample on the svs page I couldn't really be sure.

#4 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 28 2004 - 09:01 AM

I had actually sent Curtis some measurements and listening impressions between the PB2+ and the VTF-3 Mark II in a front firing woofer situation.

Picture both the Hsu and SVS producing 90 dB at 35 Hz...

At 45 Hz the Hsu will be delivering 95 dB, and the SVS 88 dB... When you consider most kick drums are prominent in this range, that will give you the tight, pounding sound that Spiffnme described. The 7 dB in that range is quite audible. And most people do not realize how deep 45 Hz is...

At 20 Hz, the Hsu will be deliver 87 dB while the SVS will be up 97 dB ... Which will give you that full, rich sound that Spiffnme described for the SVS.

You could also EQ either subwoofer to sound pretty much like the other...
Craig Chase

#5 of 185 Edward J M

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Posted May 28 2004 - 11:12 AM

With the SVS 25 Hz tuned box subwoofers, I find the 25 Hz tune to sound better (to my ears) with music than the 20 Hz tune. Personal preference, I'm sure. Which PB1+ tune do you like better for music, Curtis?
Ed Mullen
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SVS

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#6 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 28 2004 - 01:37 PM

It is a natural blond....my favorite! Posted Image

Edward, in the week that I had the PB1+, I found that I preferred the 20hz tune. Just like the VTF-3, the change from 20hz to 25hz is very slight for music. The comparisons were done with both subs in 20hz tune. It would have been nice to do another comparison at 25hz as well.

It was fun...great subs. Since I had the opportunity to hear another SVS.....I took it.

As one of the listeners that came over said, you would not know if you preferred one over the other unless you heard them and you would be perfectly happy.

The more that I do speaker and sub comparisons, the less I want to do another one. I just rather enjoy than compare...unless someone else is doing the setup. Posted Image Next time though, I am going to make sure I have more people lined up to come over, it is a great opportunity that I wish more people had. Better for them to draw their own conclusions rather than listen to what I have to say.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#7 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 28 2004 - 01:40 PM

Curtis - All you need is Spiff to come over... look at his conclusions, and he is dead on for the sound of both subs...
Craig Chase

#8 of 185 Phil Tomaskovic

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Posted May 28 2004 - 01:45 PM

thanks Curtis!

#9 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 28 2004 - 03:12 PM

Craig..I know..I was there.

DNelms also agrees with spiff as well.
curtis
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#10 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 28 2004 - 03:57 PM

Curtis, Since you were there (shocking as it was your house) can you tell us what efforts you made to ensure that each sub was:

1. Placed in the best room position for that sub?
2. Calibrated properly, and using what equipment?
3. Eq'ed using some form of measuring software?
4. Level matched so that each unit was producing the same SPL's?
Craig Chase

#11 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 28 2004 - 04:42 PM

Placed in the same place as where I have my VTF-3....in fact...I do not even know if that is the best place for the VTF-3. It is the best place out of the three choices I had and looks the best there.

Calibrated using Avia and a Rat Shack meter.

No EQing. Did not use the EQ on the PB1+. I don't have EQing equipment or measurement tools other than the SPL meter.

Yes...level matched for most of the listening. Then we played with the level to see if they sounded better or worse....for the most part, it just made them sound louder.

For my VTF-3, unboxed...skim the manual, find a good place to put it, plug it in, calibrate, and let it rip. Then tried two other spots for a week or so each, and then back to the original spot. Same with the PB1+(the PB1+ would only fit in the spot that the VTF-3 is in...the other two it would not fit)...just had to read a little more carefully and set the subsonic filter.

Pretty basic...just listening. Nothing scientific, just enjoyed the music and movie clips.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#12 of 185 John Tami

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Posted May 28 2004 - 07:19 PM

Curtis, if you have a PC near by, it's just a rca cable from the RS meter into your sound card. There's tons of Free Tones out there (or even your Avia) and free software to plot it on the PC. Takes time, but I imagine its way worth it in the long run, all rooms boost and absorb certain frequencys in the Bass realm....

I plan on doing it when I get my new receiver...though it will most likely be a new Pioneer (upcoming model) with Auto MCCAC.... Posted Image
JET

#13 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 28 2004 - 07:42 PM

Hey JET!

Yes...stringing a long RCA cable to my PC can be done. But after that, it is getting something to EQ the system, so another $300 on a Behringer.

As much pleasure this hobby brings to me, taking measurements, and then EQing the system is not something that is high on the list...and I'm not sure how much more pleasure it would bring. I know some really enjoy doing that, but for me, at that point, it does not seem as enjoyable.

I actually have mixed feelings about MCACC and other auto eq systems. You fall in love with speakers without it, and then you use something to "correct" it....does it then sound like the speaker you fell in love with? Does it sound like another speaker? Don't get me wrong...I understand and appreciate what it does, and I might end up using it one day as well, but I just wonder sometimes.....Does it really sound better with MCACC?
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#14 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 29 2004 - 01:54 AM

Curtis, The problem as I see it is you are either into reviewing speakers against each other, or you are not. You have owned one sub for months, possibly years. You set the other sub up, and had it in your possession for a week.

You did not avail yourself of any good test gear, nor did you use all the built in features of the second subwoofer to maximize its performance.

If you remember, you were the first person to correct me for testing the 1220 without the Hsu Amp, and the Hsu built in EQ... and I agreed with you. I also have gotten out of the habit of calling it the "1220 with the 500 watt amp" all the time, thanks to you. You will also note I was forthcoming, and said I had erred, and I published no results of that test.

How do you know you were anywhere near the performance ability of the SVS?

Yet, Your results were posted...as if it was a true test.

And yes, it works both ways, Ed and Dr. Hsu are now communicating VIA e-mail, and will be working together on more tests of Hsu products, to ensure THEY get the best possible performance.

We have two factory direct companies who make world class value products. They both deserve to have their products tested to maximize each company's performance, everytime.
Craig Chase

#15 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 29 2004 - 02:58 AM

.
Quote:
Curtis, The problem as I see it is you are either into reviewing speakers against each other, or you are not. You have owned one sub for months, possibly years. You set the other sub up, and had it in your possession for a week.


If you have a problem with it...fine...disregard it. I was not the only one that heard the subs. I was not the one that started the Axiom thread. In fact, unlike you or Ed, I did not start ANY thread on the comparison of the subs. It wasn't a review.

I listened to the subwoofers in my home and had some people come over and listen.

The only "claim" that I ever made in regards to sound is how the subs sounded TO ME in my home. No numbers...nothing scientific. Just good 'ole listen to the subs where I can.

Should everyone that compares subs or speakers take measurements or setup their rooms so they sound their best? Should everyone that post their preferences on speakers they heards make sure that they were at thier maximum performance.

Quote:
We have two factory direct companies who make world class value products. They both deserve to have their products tested to maximize each company's performance, everytime.


For my home, and the subs I had, it really doesn't matter to me what Dr. Hsu and Ed are communicating about. The numbers that either of them get for testing does not affect how the subs sounded in my home.

I don't have a room that allows the flexibility to place a sub in multiple locations and find the absolute best location for it. It just will not happen in my world.

I have nothing to prove in regards to the subs. I just had the opportunity to listen to them side by side and took it.

Craig, will you be asking these kinds of questions to anyone that post any kind of opinion on speakers or subs they heard?

If anything else comes up in this thread today...I won't be able to respond until later. I will be at the beach all day.....something I would rather do than post about subwoofers I heard.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#16 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 29 2004 - 03:27 AM

Curtis, I did not say anything about discarding what you typed. And it was you who hosted this mini shoot-out, it was you who decided where the subs were set up, and it was you who did not maximize the performance of both subs.

Yes, It was Spiff who opened the thread, but it was your test. And you posted your opinions. You say you did not start this, but, quite frankly, you did. Spiff may have started the thread, but you ran the test.

What I am stating is not opinion, it is fact. You did not maximize the PB1+.

If, say, Tuskenraider DID do a listening test with a 1220 and a Mackie power amp, without the requisite EQ that is built in to the 1220's amp, you would cry FOUL. And you would be right.

SVS built in a consumer adjustable EQ, and there are many easily accessible ways to use it to maximize performance. Contacting SVS with room dimensions and sub placement would have allowed you to use the EQ to maximize performance. This was not done.

My aim is not to start a war, it is to keep a level playing field regarding reviews of any kind between both companies.
Craig Chase

#17 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 29 2004 - 03:59 AM

Beach time.....

The VTF-3 was not maximized either.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#18 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 29 2004 - 04:06 AM

Curtis, You have had the sub there for months, visited with Dr. Hsu, been to the office, and yet have not maximized performance. OK. Enjoy the beach.
Craig Chase

#19 of 185 CurtisSC

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Posted May 29 2004 - 11:43 AM

Nope...I have not. I do not have the luxery of putting the sub where it sounds best....plain and simple. It is not a dedicated room. It is simply put where it fits and sounds best out of three choices that I have.

Is that a tough concept to understand? I am willing to bet, that there are more people like me that do not have the luxery of arranging the system the way it sounds best...much less just the sub.

Lets put it this way. The VTF-3 sounds great where it is, but it may sound even better somewhere else.

Eventhough the guys that came to listened to the subs prefered the VTF-3, I assure you, both of them would be happy with the PB1+. They wouldn't know any better if they did not have the opportunity.

But I will say that visiting Hsu Research, talking to everyone there, and listening to their subs, is extremely educational and enjoyable.

Great day at the beach.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#20 of 185 Craig Chase

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Posted May 29 2004 - 03:39 PM

Curtis, Dr. Hsu is nothing short of brilliant. His designs are wonderful, and he has made audio history.

You are the one who has now said a Hsu subwoofer needs a dedicated room in order for it to work optimally. I disagree, all it takes is a simple e-mail with a drawing of your room, especially with a VTF-3 as the sub, to get Hsu research to tell you exactly where to place a subwoofer in any room.

My apologies, I thought you knew that.
Craig Chase





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