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Is Paradigm pulling a fast one with sig series


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28 replies to this topic

#1 of 29 OFFLINE   Robert_Dufresne

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Posted May 05 2004 - 01:16 PM

I am afraid Paradigm is pulling a fast one on us with it's signature series. Just look at the facts

1 - When Paradigm introduced the studio series they said it was the ultimate, money no object speaker, the fruit of years of research and indeed they were great speakers.

2 - A few years later, they come out with the version 3 of the studio series. There is a radical design change in the tweeter and the midrange driver.The port is now at the front.The binding post and crossover is improved.

3 - Less than a year later they announce the new signature line. Nice wood veneer gold anodized tweeter and phase plug. But if you compare the exploded view of the drivers, you will find that they are indeed the same exept for the added heat dispersion fins on the casings .The binding posts are exactly the same . They did play with the crossover.

4 - The signature series is double the price of the studio series.

IMO the signature speakers should have been introduced as a version 4 of the studio series but then it would have been hard to justify the price increase. Instead, they fiddled with the version 3, made it look better with a new shape and real wood, played with the crossover and voila!! a brand new speaker that will bring in twice the profit.

I listened to both series and if there was a difference, it wasn't that great. So if you want a signature speaker for half the price, get the studio V3. There isn't that much difference.

I am disappointed because I have been a Paradigm fan and owner for years. I owned speakers from just about every series they made: Titans, MK's, Monitors, Studio v2 and studio v3. I was exited when I heard about the new sig series but disappointed when I saw them and compared them to the v3.

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#2 of 29 OFFLINE   James W. Johnson

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Posted May 05 2004 - 01:47 PM

Good for them. They are a business, what do you expect?

#3 of 29 OFFLINE   BobRoulier

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Posted May 05 2004 - 02:01 PM

I believe Paradigm is trying to appeal to a lot of different buyers and I think they are doing a great job. They are still one of the best bang for the buck companys going.I recently sold my v2 studio setup 100s,cc and adps I listened to everyting under the sun and yes there is better speakers but It always comes back to value for the dollar. I battled with v3 vs. sigs and I think the sigs are a signifigant improvement over v3 in both sound and build quality. I sold my v2 to upgrade and to me v3 was not that much of an upgrade but the sigs are. I bought my sigs in canada so I saved considerably over us retail ( please dont ask where I got them) these are speakers I will have for a long time to come and If I do sell them they will still be worth considerably more than v3



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#4 of 29 OFFLINE   Levesque

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Posted May 05 2004 - 02:24 PM

It's not finish BTW.

My Paradigm rep told me it's just starting. They want to reach the 20K$ a pair market in a couple of years...

And I can't agree with you. With a revealing system, and after I have done 2 weeks of comparison in-house before buying, I can say that the Signatures are a real step-up from the Refs (IMHO).

I had Studio-100, CC-570, Studio-40 for surrounds and Studio-20 for back centers (all v3 except the 100 that were v2), and did compare it for 2 weeks to a pair of S8, C5 and 2 pairs of S2 for surrounds and back centers.

It was well worth the price. The Sigs are better. Better sound, better mids, better highs. Gone is the "muddiness".

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#5 of 29 OFFLINE   Shane Martin

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Posted May 05 2004 - 03:25 PM

I'm sure my test wasn't so scientific and was only a casual listening session but the Sigs were better than the Studio v3's. I was only comparing the 20's/Sig s2's.

Are they worth the extra money? That is only a personal decision. I went with something else entirely. The finish was first rate however.

#6 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted May 05 2004 - 04:24 PM

What were you listening to? The improvements were considerable and immediately apparent when I listened to them...whatever they did, they did something right. IMO, though I am not willing to pay what they are asking, they are worth their asking price. The cabinets are also noticable superior to the Studios in construction and appearance.

I don't know what you are talking about with respect to the tweeters. There aren't exactly a million different ways to make a tweeter. Paradigm is still one of the few that uses cast metal waveguides.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

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#7 of 29 OFFLINE   Robert_Dufresne

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Posted May 06 2004 - 05:15 AM

Thanks for the responses I appreciate hearing other points of view. BTW, ther are many ways to make a tweeter, just ask the folks at B&W or Kef etc.

Robert

P.S. Monsieur Lévesque vous avez un système pas mal fantastique félicitations,
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#8 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted May 06 2004 - 06:03 AM

Sorry, should have been more specific. All dome tweeters are fundamentally the same, including all of those from KEF and B&W. (not talking about waveguides and tuned enclosures, etc...). IMO, the waveguide is likely the most important feature in the average tweeter, and the crossover is even more critical to how a speaker sounds than the drivers alone.

B&W uses tuned enclosures for the 7, 8 and Nautilus, but the way they function is the same as any other tweeter.

KEF uses typical dome tweeters, even in their coax designs. I've taken apart their coaxial speakers, they are nothing out of the ordinary.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#9 of 29 OFFLINE   Felix_H

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Posted May 06 2004 - 06:25 AM

The Paradign Studio and Signature series could be comparable to the B&W Nautilus 800 series and the Signiture 800 series.

Both companies use the same drivers I believe between the 2 lines, just different crossover settings and better tweaks. B&W drivers obviously are different from Paradigm.
The Signature of both series does sound better than the original.

If you are willing to pay that for that difference, go for it. Posted Image

#10 of 29 OFFLINE   Bill Blank

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Posted May 06 2004 - 08:45 AM

If comparing it to B&W, I'd say the Studio Series is more like the 700 series and the Signatures to the Nautilus. I think that is a more equal comparison of competitors.

Bill

#11 of 29 OFFLINE   Ben Stern

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Posted May 06 2004 - 12:01 PM

Until someone does a serious objective DBT between the Sigs and the Reference line, everyone's opinion is just that - an opinion. If you have the coin and like the Sigs, get them. My own speculation, is that like most ultra high end products, you pay a lot more to get an incremental improvement. Where the financial "sweet spot" is, depends on how deep your pockets are and your personal subjective perception of things.

#12 of 29 OFFLINE   Kevin. W

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Posted May 06 2004 - 12:04 PM

Quote:
Gone is the "muddiness".


What do you mean by this in the v3 line? Whats the best material to demo to hear this?

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#13 of 29 OFFLINE   Robert_Dufresne

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Posted May 06 2004 - 12:21 PM

Sorry I don't hear any muddiness
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#14 of 29 OFFLINE   Jason Brown

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Posted May 06 2004 - 04:22 PM

I don't see how Paradigm could be pulling a fast one unless someone bought the Studios solely to own the company's flagship, or unless Paradigm removed the option to buy the Studios altogether.

After recently upgrading all my gear (including Paradigm Studios all around), I realized I have reached the point where any significant sonic upgrades are going to cost multiple times what I've already spent. I've already stretched my financial limits getting to where I am now, and am very happy with my gear. That said (and I wish it wasn't true), I found the Signatures to sound a lot better than the Studios, and consequently, I'll do whatever it takes to get a pair.

Are the Sigs 3 times better than the Studios? Of course not, but at $6000USD, please point me in that direction if something is.

#15 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted May 06 2004 - 05:28 PM

Quote:
but at $6000USD, please point me in that direction if something is.

OK.

http://www.josephaudio.com/

I listened to the S2 and RM7Si Signature back to back, and the RM7 sounded better and cost slightly less.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#16 of 29 OFFLINE   BrianKR

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Posted May 06 2004 - 10:37 PM

I agree with Lévesque that the Studio's sound a lil muddy.

J Garcia, does Joesph Audio have a speaker that will compare favorably to the Par S8 @ $6,000?
I have never audtioned JA's, I don't even know a company that sells them, but everyone that has audtioned them do nothing but praise them!
I just emailed them to see where the nearest dealer might be to me. I want to give them a listen for myself.


btw, I would like to own the Paradigm SigC5 just for the shear size/envy factor of that BEAST!

#17 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted May 07 2004 - 04:19 AM

The RM33si would be the S8's closest comparison, however the RM33 MSRPs at $7400. I have not heard the Pearl, but the rest of them are excellent speakers.

Studios don't sound "muddy" to me, they just have a reserved midrange, "dished" almost, which I feel was improved from the v2s to the v3s noticably. The Sigs have not gotten rid of this either, I think it is just how Paradigm designs their x-overs, and is a characteristic of nearly all of the Paradigm lines. Not a bad thing, just their particular sound. The Sigs are more exciting and full sounding compared to the Studios.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#18 of 29 OFFLINE   BrianKR

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Posted May 07 2004 - 05:02 AM

Muddy probably isn't the best way to describe it.
I guess I am directly comparing the differences I heard when I had my Paradigm Studio's in the same room with my B&W Nautilus.

*note this is just 'my' personal opinion. I'm not trying to say 1 is better than the other. heck I am thinking about purchasing the Sig line myself*

I did a comparison between the 2 sets I owned to see which one was going to be my top choice for my basement HT room and I found the PS to be "muddy" ( which to me = not quite as clear and detailed) compared to the B&W Nauts. I guess I associate less detailed as a lil muddy.

#19 of 29 OFFLINE   Levesque

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Posted May 07 2004 - 05:24 AM

"The Sigs have not gotten rid of this either"

John. Did you had them both in the same room in the same conditions with the same source and amplification before saying that?

#20 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted May 07 2004 - 05:36 AM

Yes, back to back to back with the S2, v3 20s, and RM7Si. Nothing was changed except the speakers, and I spent just over 2 1/2 hrs with these three speakers and my own CDs. Gear: Arcam CD73 with an A80 integrated amp.

I'm also not saying there is anything wrong with the Signatures. Comparing the S2 to the RM7, the midrange detail of the RM7 was noticably clearer.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 






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