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Which SVS does my HT room NEED ?


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43 replies to this topic

#1 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 03:27 AM

Okay, I moved into a new house last fall. Ever since, my bass response has been very poor. The room is not perfect to say the least. I should also note that I currently have no sub at all. I will be purchasing a SVS sub this summer but I have no idea which one will provide me with the bass response I need (or shall i say, this room will need).

Here is a quick sctech I did in MS Paint:

Posted Image

The main HT area has 2.5 walls. The 3 front speakers are facing a full open wall which leads to my porch (via stairs). I guess you can clasify my HT room as a loft. The measurment from my 3 front speakers to the very outter wall is approx 25 ft (about 18ft to the railing and and additional 7ft to the very outter wall with a 20 ft tall ceiling). The ceiling within the 18ft length to the railing is about only about 8 ft high though.

I hope I didn't make this too confusing but the room itself is a little complicated. Anyways, I can't really spend a load of cash on an "Ultra" model but I want something that will suffice for the tall cieling and open walls. I also have my heart set on a cylinder. Any suggestions on what SVS I should get to accomidate this loft type HT room ?

#2 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 03:47 AM

NOTE: I already emailed SVS about this. I posted it here also because I would like to see other input from the knowlegable people of this forum (especially people that have battled the same thing Posted Image).

#3 of 44 ChadLB

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Posted April 02 2004 - 03:55 AM

My guess would be the 20-39 PC+. Since the Ultra is out of your price range and since you want a cylinder.

#4 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:01 AM

So none of the PCi's would suffice then ? I love how cheap the PCi line is Posted Image. I can always save a bit more cash tho .... I know the 25-31PCi has some nice SPL's ... and I was kinda hoping it would be enough. I'll wait on some input from SVS too. If I have to spend the extra cash on a PC+ then I'll simply delay this purchase for a few months to save up the extra cash. Only problem is, I'm such an impatient person by nature. Oh well, patients is something I should work on anyways Posted Image. Thanks for the input.

#5 of 44 ChadLB

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:03 AM

Joe,
Which one did SVS recommend?

#6 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:05 AM

I just emailed them not even 20 minutes ago. So no response yet. Damn SVS guys, so slow at responding! Posted Image

(edited my previous post so it now says, "I'll wait on some input from SVS too", instead of "I'll wait on some more input from SVS too". Sorry for the confusion Posted Image).

#7 of 44 Peter_D

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:30 AM

My room is Pretty open like yours i am going to go for the PB2-ISD i was Thinking the 16-46 PC+ but for a few more dollars you can get the isd wich has more power. Now i have to wait until later this year to get it the dam thing is $899

#8 of 44 steve nn

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:35 AM

I also have my heart set on a cylinder. Any suggestions on what SVS I should get to accommodate this loft type HT room ?
__________________________________________________ _________

If it were my decision to make I would go with the 25-31PC+ http://www.svsubwoof...cplus_25-31.htm .. It will be more resistant to bottoming out and with room gain it will still be a digger. You might find out that you have the headroom to run it in the 20 hz tune also for those occasions that you might deem fit? Their 25 hz tune offerings really do dig though. I think thats one of the biggest reasons why imo SVS is such a good choice for the $$. If you listen at -15 to -20 the 20-39PC+
http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pcplus_20-39.htm.. might be the better choice admittedly? With your room size I would gravitate to the 25-31PC+ though.

#9 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:39 AM

Quote:
My room is Pretty open like yours i am going to go for the PB2-ISD i was Thinking the 16-46 PC+ but for a few more dollars you can get the isd wich has more power. Now i have to wait until later this year to get it the dam thing is $899

I want the more efficient Cylinder design. I love the way it looks and it seems like it'll fit nicer in the corners. I'm also in Canada and currency + shipping plays a big factor.

Anyone in Edmonton selling a used SVS ??? Sure would make things easier Posted Image.

#10 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:52 AM

Quote:
If it were my decision to make I would go with the 25-31PC+ http://www.svsubwoof...cplus_25-31.htm .. It will be more resistant to bottoming out and with room gain it will still be a digger. You might find out that you have the headroom to run it in the 20 hz tune also for those occasions that you might deem fit? Their 25 hz tune offerings really do dig though. I think thats one of the biggest reasons why imo SVS is such a good choice for the $$. If you listen at -15 to -20 the 20-39PC+
http://www.svsubwoof...lus_20-39.htm.. might be the better choice admittedly? With your room size I would gravitate to the 25-31PC+ though.

Thanks for the great response. I can already see the trend of the PC+ being needed to fill my needs .... So I guess it'll save the extra cash for a PC+. Now the question, which PC+ shall I decide on ? I find myself watching movies almost every day. So this sub will be used primarily for DVD's. I'm really into the older horror titles like Return of the Living Dead and Re-animator. I do watch a ton of newer titles though (like Wrong Turn and TCM 2003).

Another huge factor is I don't listen to movies and music at very loud volumes. I've got a Denon AVR-1803 and I rarely put volume past -20 ... maximum -13 (it's loud but not enough to travel outside). My current home is in a 4-plex. Noise has never been a factor though and my neighbors are all very cool and easy going. I was also assured by the landlord that the walls are filled with concrete. Do you guys think the SVS will travel alot past the concrete walls at moderate volumes ?

This 4-plex housing is a temp solution anyways. My wife and I will be purchasing our first home next summer so I can always run the SVS a bit lower if need be until the move to the new house.

#11 of 44 Dan Halchak

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Posted April 02 2004 - 04:53 AM

My friend's room was roughly the same size as your, though not as open (his room size would include your stairs), and the PC+ 20-39 easily filled his room without any real problem. Now he was on a concrete cement slab and you still got the couch vibrating. I think I would've like 2 PC+s or ultras for that added kick...but the one was plenty.

I say go for a PC+, the extra headroom, better driver, higher wattage, and variable phase control will help keep you from the "what if" factor.

Nice thing too, is if you get one, try it out and find out you want another one, it works out perfectly.

#12 of 44 Shane Martin

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Posted April 02 2004 - 05:00 AM

I'd personally do w/o until you can afford to get what you want. If that is the PC+ Ultra, then so be it. That's not too much more money(a few hundred) so that shouldn't be too much longer of a wait for you and you'll be happier in the long term.

Think long term especially in Canada. I'd hate to sell the thing then be forced to pay taxes and shipping again on another SVS because you got the upgrade bug.

#13 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 06:53 AM

Yepperz, you guys got it dead on. I don't wanna spend the extra cash later on once the upgrade bug hits. I'm gonna go for a 20-39PC+ instead of the PCi line (unless SVS recommends different). It seems like it'll be overkill for my listening levels but like you guys mentioned, the added headroom is nice. Thanks a bunch!!!!

After shipping and conversion it'll come to $1,160.41 CAD. I was aiming for the $1000 or less budget but the extra money will be well worth it.

One last question, I always get hit with customs when I order from the states. Even on one single DVD from yesasia.com it comes to $5 customs. I can only imagine how much I'll be raped on $1,160.41. Anyone in Canada had any experience with customs and SVS ? If so how bad was it ?

#14 of 44 Sebastian

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Posted April 02 2004 - 07:41 AM

Joe,
Great choice, I second the 20-39PC+

#15 of 44 Robert Hoffman

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Posted April 02 2004 - 07:49 AM

Quote:
It will be more resistant to bottoming out


Steve, why do you say this? Is it because the 25-31 doesn't extend as low in the stock 25hz tune (thus putting less stress on the driver?).

#16 of 44 steve nn

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Posted April 02 2004 - 10:09 AM

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7) What size SVS should I get, 25-31, 20-39 or 16-46?

Regardless of whether you go with a self-powered "PC" type sub, or a passive "CS" model (there are several), each of our sizes (let’s call them the three "series" of subs) has its strengths and might work better for some customers than others. Truth is, for most programming played at typical listening levels you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the largest and smallest SVS. But these subs aren’t made for "most listeners" and we know many customers that go well over "typical listening levels". We’re talking theater at home here!

If you looked at either the various PC or CS subwoofer pages you saw the three series (sizes that is) --- The 25-31, the 20-39, and the "biggun" the 16-46. Each of these might be either a PC or a CS model, but what makes them different? First thing to note are those numbers themselves. The first two digits of each series is the subwoofer’s "tune". That is, the frequency at which the subwoofer output begins to drop (by design). The 25-31 series is tuned to 25Hz then (more on this in a second). The second half of the series number is the physical size of the sub rounded to the nearest inch. So the 25-31 is…31" tall from floor to top grill. The 20-39 then is tuned to 20Hz, and is about 39" tall; while the 16-46 is tuned to a ultra low 16Hz and is 46" tall.

But why "tune" the subs to different frequencies? Why not one size?

Well, while one size does NOT fit all…size DOES largely determine the nature of what a sub can do, because size changes to the internal volume of the sub itself. You see, the greater the sub’s size and internal volume the longer the "port". And that port works with the custom SVS woofer to determine just how low a sub goes in the bass spectrum. Note here that SV Subwoofers are fantastically efficient because they eschew the equalization and megawatts of power often used by other brands to make up for a puny enclosure. SVS’s still require precise tuning to make sure they are tailored to their users though. So each size SVS has a port precisely designed to optimize efficiency for its given internal volume, which is in turn optimized for those different kinds of users we mentioned before. What are those kinds of customers?

First are those that are looking for the max bang for the buck, in the smallest enclosure possible. They want a sub that absolutely raises the roof with both quantity AND quality bass. The sub must reach down low enough to do justice to all but the lowest bass on today’s DVDs and laserdiscs.

The SVS 25-31 series is it. This mighty midget (midget by SVS standards!) can actually kick out the greatest sound pressure level (SPL) in the most common home theater bass range before hitting the excursion limits of the driver (also known as "bottoming" where the driver physically hits hard limits of travel). Above 25-30Hz the 25-31 series takes a back seat to NO subwoofer in this price class, including other SVS’s! So while this sub doesn’t go super low, it does go super loud (and ALL our subs are always super accurate, or else they wouldn’t be SVS’s!). If popular music (which is nearly all above 25Hz) is your main source of pleasure the 25-31 is probably your best choice. The fact it’s the smallest and least expensive SVS too is a plus for many on a tight budget too.

But there is bass, rare, tactile and downright menacing bass, on a small but increasing number of DVD’s that goes even lower, into the 20Hz range. That’s 1/3 octave deeper than the 25-31. This is where the switch hitter of our lineup takes over…the SVS 20-39 series. With these subs you get the same flat performance up high, but at the absolute limit just a dB or two less max output (in those common HT bass regions) before the 20-39 hits its excursion limits. In return however is a good bit more depth, with several more dBs useable response in the absolute depths of HT bass. Laserdiscs of The Phantom Menace, DVD’s of "Super Speedway" and some other insanely low bass soundtracks will shudder you in ways you never knew were possible. Nearly no DVD low frequency effects (LFE) go lower than what the 20-39 can reach. Again, a bit max capacity is given up in higher bass but it would rarely be an audible difference in your HT. Then again, the lower bass that the 20-39 can reach is rare too. We never said this was an easy decision! Keep in mind here that at 20Hz this series is producing as much energy as several high quality subwoofers. This is ground that few subwoofers tread on, and many that do tiptoe, instead of stomp like a good sub should. So you trade a dB or two relative to the 25-31...but you get extension down to 20hz.

That leaves us with the real bottom feeder of the SVS arsenal, the 16-46. It gives up a bit more total SPL capability above 25-30Hz before hitting its woofer’s excursion limits. In this case though you are talking about a sub that is still VERY strong in regions of bass that are quite literally subsonic. This SVS will extend down to 16hz (anechoic), and down to 10-13hz in most rooms. If you like Pipe organs---this is probably the model to get. However, (as above) to realize true 16hz extension, you're trading off another dB or 2 in the more common bass frequencies. If you want your bass both super low AND super loud a pair of 16-46s might be advised. For more typical viewing though even one 16-46 is more bass than many people need.

With either one or two 16-46s we are talking about bass so low you can no longer reliably hear it, you can only FEEL it. In your bones, in your teeth. Bass that, when present in your music or the very rare DVD, can almost blur your vision. You can count the number of subs which can hit respectable SPL below 15-20Hz on one hand. Those that you can afford? Take a few fingers away. So with the 16-46 series you trade a few dBs at gonzo levels of typical 30Hz bass and in return you have a sub that will go to the limits of human hearing, and beyond. Sure it’s bigger, and it costs a bit more. But for folks that simply must know they are getting ALL the bass, no matter what they listen to (pipe organs to nuclear detonations) the 16-46 is worth its nominal compromises.

No matter what series you select, if you like to "take it to 11" and run your movies (or just demos for the friends) at full Dolby Digital movie theater level, or you have a large, open and otherwise challenging home theater, then a pair of SVS’s is strongly advised. Reaching true reference level bass is far more difficult than most enthusiasts realize, we just like to think we’re more open about the challenge than some other sub makers. More about that under "do I need dual subwoofers?".


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I think this should help.
Posted Image

#17 of 44 Joe Mihok

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Posted April 02 2004 - 12:31 PM

I read this already but thanks for posting it. It's a good guide but I wasn't sure if my living space was considered large (i've seen far bigger HT rooms than mine). Tom estimates i'm dealing with 7000 cubic feet. I figure one day I'll probably buy a second SVS. But for the time being I'm gonna try and get away with just one if possible. If not then that's fine, I'll buy a second when I have the $$$.

#18 of 44 Edward J M

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Posted April 02 2004 - 12:49 PM

Quote:
Steve, why do you say this? Is it because the 25-31 doesn't extend as low in the stock 25hz tune (thus putting less stress on the driver?).


Cone excursion increases as frequency drops, until the resonator starts to take over. Cone excursion is considerably reduced while the woofer is coupled with the resonator.

The lower the tune point (20 Hz and 16 Hz respectively for the larger models), the deeper the woofer has to play without help from the resonator. This will result in a correspondingly higher the cone excursion for each larger and deeper tuned model. A look at the tune charts on the SVS website will help someone understand this. Or just zip an email off to DustinB; he seems to pull excursion vs. frequency charts out of thin air. Posted Image

And I agree 100% with Triple Threat Stevenn - the 25-31PC+ is your boy for that size room if you want a powered cylinder.

Also, when you reference relative volume levels from the 1803, is your system calibrated to Reference Level at Master Volume 0.0?
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#19 of 44 George_W_K

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Posted April 02 2004 - 12:49 PM

Quote:
I read this already but thanks for posting it.


The funny thing is I'll bet a lot of people from this forum have it memorized!

#20 of 44 steve nn

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Posted April 02 2004 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for stepping in Ed and clarifying. Are you sure you don't teach english/grammar on the side?Posted Image

Joe it would be nice if you had a solid wall a little closer in to your back. On the other hand your situation can be interpreted as being a positive also. You should get a fairly flat response but the situation calls for some definite oomph.


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