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Sound and Vision/Sub-volume setting....


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#1 of 18 douglas-b

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Posted March 24 2004 - 02:59 AM

I first calibrated all speakers to 85db. When my receiver is turned up to "00" all speakers hit 85db on my rat-shack meter. That part was easy. Then I thought I would double check with the receivers test tones (Denon 1804). The receiver turns itself up to "00" and plays it's test tones...they were all even. It only hit 80db on my meter but they were all even. I smiled happily and moved to the sub. When I played that chapter on the disk I thought I should do it like the other chapters but when I set my volume to "00" it's not 85db it's more like 90db. How can I calibrate when the levels on the test tones are different?

I have my sub set at the same levels as the rest of my speakers using the internal test tones of the receiver...everything hits 80db which as I stated above when I play the chapter "6 channel speaker balance" they all read 85db. (80db on the receiver=85db on the disk) wouldn't it stand to reason to also just set the sub up the same way...80db on the receivers test tones=85db???

#2 of 18 Nathan Stohler

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Posted March 24 2004 - 03:22 AM

Are you saying that the test tones on your setup disk are 5 dB louder than your receiver's test tones, except for the subwoofer tone which is 10 dB louder on the disk?

If so, I'd use the test tone on the disk to calibrate.

#3 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 24 2004 - 03:46 AM

At the Spot we discussed the S&V disc (I have it) and since I was getting a SVS to go with my brand new JBL's I wanted to learn about those tones. Turns out S&V does not recommend using them to Calibrate. (another member emailed S&V) They will give you bad info if used. You need either Receiver tones (mine does not put out any for the sub) or one of the other premium discs (DVE or Avia) to do the job from what I understand....
JET

#4 of 18 douglas-b

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Posted March 24 2004 - 03:50 AM

When I used the chapter "6 channel speaker balance" all channels are balanced at 85db. When I use the receivers test tones they measure at 80db on my radio shack spl. I'm not confused by that. Whats important is that they are at the same level and I know that. I just wanted to see if they were equal when I used the receivers test tones.
What is confusing me is the chapter on setting the subs volume. When I turn the test tone up to the level I just calibrated at in the previous chapter...the tone is at 90db when I play it at "00" on the reciever and it should play at 85db just like it din in the "6 channel speaker balance" chapter.

#5 of 18 douglas-b

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Posted March 24 2004 - 03:52 AM

Thanks John, I didn't think I was crazy and I searched alot and I couldn't find any info on it.

#6 of 18 Brian L

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Posted March 24 2004 - 04:50 AM

Stay away from DVE for bass test tones. It is not correctly authored. Serach here and in the Software section....there are a couple threads on the matter.

BGL

#7 of 18 BruceD

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Posted March 24 2004 - 05:09 AM

John,

Quote:
Turns out S&V does not recommend using them to Calibrate. (another member emailed S&V) They will give you bad info if used. You need either Receiver tones (mine does not put out any for the sub) or one of the other premium discs (DVE or Avia) to do the job from what I understand....

Not sure I understand, as the S&V DVD is mostly just a subset of the AVIA DVD. The developers of the AVIA/S&V audio calibration programs certainly are not saying you shouldn't use their disks to calibrate your system are they?

Do you have any references to where Ovation (developer) says not to use S&V for calibration?

By the way, you need to understand that AVIA and S&V don't really have LFE calibration tones. Instead, they send the bass signals (LFE plus re-directed bass from small speakers) to the processor and let the bass management software in the processor distribute the bass content according to the processor's speaker and xover setups.

If you want a separate LFE calibration tone, I recommend the original VE (video Essentials) calibration DVD.

#8 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 24 2004 - 09:40 AM

If you dig in the HTS SVS forum, you see a thread by me on the subject (about 2-3 weeks ago) Another member emailed them and they told him what I wrote above. I don't know any more then that.
JET

#9 of 18 BruceD

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Posted March 25 2004 - 04:37 AM

Well, it sure would be prudent for someone from Ovation (developer of audio test signals on S&V DVD) to give us some definitive answers to that dilemma. I can't see putting out a calibration DVD and them sending an email that says don't use it for calibration.

Doesn't that see bizare to anyone else?

#10 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 25 2004 - 04:58 AM

This the answers I got when I asked about using that disc..

Quote:
Jet, I have the S&V tune up disc you pictured. The problem with the disc is that the calibration for the sub has to be done by ear (per on screen directions) and not with an SPL meter. They give an alternating signal from the L.F. speaker and the sub that you are to match by ear. The on screen directions say that it is not possible to use an SPL meter with this test. I tried, it doesn't work. I have been e-mailing Avia trying to find out if I am missing something on the disc and as of this morning I haven't got an answer that I am doing anything incorrectly. Anybody out there set up their sub with this disc and an SPL meter? I would appreciate the help.

Quote:
Jet, I just heard from Avia and you can NOT use the "Tune Up" disc to set the sub with an SPL meter.

I asked "did they say why?"

Quote:
It will let you calibrate each of the 5 speakers to each other. I set my receiver to 0 and calibrated them all to 85 dB. The disc does not have provisions for 7.1 calibration, so after I set lf, c, rf, rs and ls speakers, I got out of the disc and calibrated lrs and rrs speakers to the rest of the speakers using my receivers test tones. I was told that the "Tune Up" disc was mainly used for integrating the sub to the mains and not for setting sub overall level (if that makes sense). As far as using the receiver test tones, I don't think that using them for the sub will work if you use the disc for the surrounds.


I agree it's pretty lame....I don't get what is so difficult for these company's to get test tones usable and correct for the application.
JET

#11 of 18 Doug Smith

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Posted March 25 2004 - 07:27 AM

Interesting discussion. I have been folling around with the same problem. I used the S&V disc to calibrate everything. I calibrated my JBL sub with the front left speaker, as it says too on the disc. Seemed to work great when playing music, but I wasn't getting great LFE with movies (no bang for my buck). When replaying the disc recently it says (yes indeed) you should use your own ear to calibrate between the frontleft speaker and sub, even if the two readings come out different on your sound meter. So I played it by ear (so to speak) and when I played music through my Marantz 7300 the pictures almost came off the wall - way to loud. I wound up compromising - which is to say I wound up adjusting purely by my own taste alone - which I think is what the disc is saying. I'm certainly no expert. Did anyone else notice a difference between calibrating through DTS as opoosed to Dolby?

#12 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 25 2004 - 09:32 AM

DTS is known for being I think something like +3DB hotter then Dolby. I tend to adjust my sub down for DTS.....
JET

#13 of 18 BruceD

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Posted March 25 2004 - 09:55 AM

I'm just glad I didn't pay any money for my S&V DVD (won it), but selling a calibration DVD that doesn't do proper calibration seems ridiculous.

#14 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 25 2004 - 02:47 PM

Rather harsh Bruce!

Quote:
FYI from Ovation (they make both Avia and S&V HTT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guy Kuo from Ovation Software had this to say: (after being asked what's difference since there is a large price difference...)

"HTT is a grounds up completely different disc from AVIA. The emphasis was on making the basics easier rather than the more encyclopaedic approach of AVIA. The primary video test patterns for user controls were modified from those in AVIA to incorporate the user experience we've had. For instance, the sharpness pattern in HTT is specially bandwidth limited to be more useful and less visually confusing when used with normal DVD players. The one in AVIA is super severe and almost always shows some false outlining unless a ultra high bandwidth player like a HTPC is used. The massive set of patterns in AVIA is not present, but a pretty useful set of "bonus" patterns are included. Those are sufficient to take care of 95% of advanced user needs. You'll find better grayscale windows and the finest possible detail crosshatch and focus patterns that can be put on DVD (progressive single pixel resolution). Audio tests are totally new and include support for both DTS and DD with rear center channels. It's not just an AVIA stripped down. It's a new disc with a different perspective.

Guy Kuo
Ovation Software, The Calibration Tool Source"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Except for Sub Cal, I've been very pleased with it....
JET

#15 of 18 douglas-b

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Posted March 25 2004 - 04:02 PM

The disk is very helpful with everything else that is on the disk...it was just the "sub volume setting" chapter that was messing me up. My receiver has tones for all channels including the sub so it's cool. It was just when I compared the two...they weren't even close. So I thought I was doing something wrong. Well, I'm glad I asked somebody...I just wish I would have done it sooner.Posted Image

ThanksPosted Image

#16 of 18 Robert AG

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Posted March 26 2004 - 01:20 AM

Download a free copy of TrueRTA (www.trueaudio.com) which has 1 octave resolution - good enough for general HT subwoofer calibration. Set the generator to "pink noise" and run the output of your soundcard to your receiver. The upgrades of this program are cheap if you want resolution tup to 1/24th octave.

Purchase the NEW RadioShack SPL meter which has a line out jack which is not effected by the weighting curves inside the meter. Run this output to the input of your soundcard.

Turn on the analyzer in TrueRTA and have at it.

Cheap and good. With the upgraded TrueRTA, cheap and very good. Posted Image

#17 of 18 John Tami

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Posted March 26 2004 - 05:08 AM

Neat idea.....but my PC is located a good 25' away in the Kitchen. It'll be awhile before I can cable stuff that far!
JET

#18 of 18 Robert AG

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Posted March 26 2004 - 08:19 AM

That's why they make 25 foot wires. Posted Image


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