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#1 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 16 2004 - 06:58 AM

http://www.runco.com/OP_CRT.html

How much do those particular CRT projectors go for? Are CRT projectors the best? if not which ones.

I have a few questions.

Can i get a good projector for $3,000?

Somebody who i dont usually believe, was talking to somebody else and said that you should pour more money into the screen then projector?

What's the difference in screens and who makes good ones?

When i get a projector i was hoping to get a screen as big as 10 feet but have absolutely no idea how much they are and what not. I've got a 55" and it just doesnt do it for me from the distance.

Also out of curosity, would a projector like that (CRT) or something else be able to have HD or plasma quality at 90 inches?
I work on Film, Animation & Sound Design in downtown Chicago.
 

#2 of 20 Chester II

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Posted March 16 2004 - 07:40 AM

Dude,

Dude man....you need to go see some projectors on demonstration at a couple of audio video stores. Check out CRT vs digital (DLP or LCD)projectors as they are different animals in the zoo managerie that is home theater. Basically CRT is higher end, can be very expensive, and requires installation calibration and periodic maintenance while DLP and LCD or almost plug and play. The screen should be purchased AFTER you purchase the projector and should compliment the specifications of the given unit. A three thousand dollar budget puts you in the LCD/DLP camp or MAYBE you can get hold of a used CRT (I don't personallyl recommend that). The issues of resolution, screen size, etc., should come AFTER you've familiarized yourself with the basics first.

Good luck dude,

Chester

#3 of 20 Matthew Todd

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Posted March 16 2004 - 07:51 AM

As far as used CRT, you could buy a used refurbished unit from a good reseller. $3,000 would get you in the range of the best 8" used CRTs.

You can usually find a cheaper deal on ebay or from someone who's just selling a projector they don't use anymore or whatever (I actually have an Ampro 3600 8" CRT that I'm going to be selling). If you buy from a reputable reseller, you have a bit more peace of mind and someone to help guide you through set up.

A CRT is big and heavy, and will take some "tinker time" to learn how to set it up right. If you don't mind that, it might be a good choice for you.

New CRTs, like those in the Runco link are VERY expensive. In the range of $15,000-$50,000.
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#4 of 20 Ian-Fl

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Posted March 16 2004 - 08:11 AM

Keep in mind although CRT projectors are the benchmark in picture quality they can weigh 200lbs. and take alot of skill to adjust the picture. Some people hire professionals to adjust their CRT's.
http://www.myhomethe...m/CRTmount.html
If you really want a theater as a full time hobby it's an excellent idea.
Although LCD and DLP projectors have weaknesses they can still produce an excellent picture. They are light, easy to set up and very easy to adjust. I prefer the no fuss hook it up to a DVD player and watch approach.

#5 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 16 2004 - 08:41 PM

Hmm for someone reason my 2nd post didnt go through? oh well, some other threads gave me some good ideas on projectors and what not and i will be doing alot of research on that but the question remains:

Spend more money on a projector or the screen?

How much do screen's normally cost like in the 10-12ft range? I realize out of previous cluelessness experience that there's most likely lots of different screens and different companies make better ones with different material but since i dont know, i gotta ask. does DA-LITE make good screens? i mean i was hopin to keep my budget of the projector and screen in the $5,000-$7,000 range. Which would include a 12 foot screen and how this new giant screen revolution has just come to me it's starting to seem like to get any kind of projector+screen it couldnt possibly be good unless it was $10,000 or over. What with all the plasma tvs and how it cost like $5,000 for a 42" thats just...ouch.

Is the weird fuzziness i've seen on some projector screens and movie theaters just good quality and thats what good quality looks like and thats what the picture is meant to be like orrrr is it because the picture really is fuzzy (movie theaters) and the picture lacks? If thats true is it the projector at movie theaters? the film instead of dvd at theaters? Or is it just the fact that it's the sheer size of the screen and no projector/dvd (or whatever high quality video formats they've got now that i havent heard of) can produce a clearer picture.

the 1820x1080 or whatever the numbers are is the number of pixels right. You just multiply them and thats how many pixels there are right? if true isnt that the number of pixels on plasma tvs. I realize 2,000,000 pixels is alot but i was just wondering the picture quality on projectors at the theater and the imax cause 2,000,000 is alot (i think) but it just seems out of common estimate that if you took 2,000,000 pixels and put them on an imax screen the quality would suck. Correct me if im wrong.

The reason i ask this question is because the 1820x1080 thing is what is says on the CRT projectors. The simple thing that would strike a new guy's mind like mind is (well, it's got plasma tv quality) but since it has that size thing that says 90" to 300" that kinda throws me around alittle bit. Been tryin to look some of this stuff up but i guess im askin the wrong questions, all i get is jibberish.
I work on Film, Animation & Sound Design in downtown Chicago.
 

#6 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 16 2004 - 09:02 PM

www.soundandvision.net

That's one of my local high end stores...and probably about the best one in the area. That's where i got to watch Pirates Of The Carribbean on a Runco CRT projector, not sure which model. I went there on my way home from seeing Return of the King. they had Meridian DSP8000 fronts and a DSP5500 for a center, probably DSP6000 for rears or something and a Veloydne 1812 sub (AWESOME!) Anywho, i dont know if i was paranoid or still used to the movie theater (it had just come out so it was in there high quality theaters) but the picture quality looked good, and had that larger then life sort of surreal feeling that screens do (it was probably....12-15ft). It just seemed like there was something there, maybe im just paranoid or if it's limits of modern projection technology?

Sort of like the fuzzyness look of movie theater picture just not nearly as intense? just lookin for an answer really, is that just what big screens look like?
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#7 of 20 Matthew Todd

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Posted March 17 2004 - 02:47 AM

Quote:
but the picture quality looked good, and had that larger then life sort of surreal feeling that screens do (it was probably....12-15ft). It just seemed like there was something there, maybe im just paranoid or if it's limits of modern projection technology?


Allen, are you talking about "Pirates of the Carribbean" that you saw on the Runco CRT, or are you talking about "Return of the King" that you saw in the movie theater?

If you're talking about the CRT, and it was really blown up to 12-15 feet (either wide or diagonal, it's not going to make much difference at this size), that's probably just too big to get a good picture, especially from a DVD.

The native resolution on a DVD is only 720x480. That's all that's on there. You can see that if you start blowing that up very big, it's going to look bad. With a real HD source the resolution is going to be either 1280x720 or 1920x1080. Because it's higher resolution, you can blow it up bigger and have it still look okay. The very best CRT projectors can resolve a 1920x1080 picture (some of the very best digitals can to - Sony Qualia). If you were watching "Pirates" on DVD though, all you were seeing was probably 720x480 scaled up.

The other problem besides resolution when blowing up something so big is brightness. Most of these home projectors are going to look their best brightness wise when the picture is not more than about 8 feet wide. You can go wider, but understand that as you do, the brightness drops off fast.

When you see a film in the theater, it's a different animal. A good theater can show a film on a 40 or 50 foot wide screen and have it look good. Film projectors are very bright. Also, there are no pixels in film. The image is right there on the film print. If you were to try to compare the resolution available on a good film print with what's available in the best video (even HD), film has a higher resolution. If you were to put 1920x1080 HD video up on a huge IMAX screen, the 2 million pixels would not look as good as a good film print.

Quote:
Spend more money on a projector or the screen?

I don't think I would spend more money on a screen than a projector. I'm using a simple Da-Lite pull down 1.5 gain screen with my CRT projector, and that works just fine for me right now. There are a lot of different materials available as far as screens go, and there are also some expensive options that you can put into a screen that are not going to affect the picture quality. For example, you will pay a lot more for an electric drop down screen than a pull down having the same fabric. A fixed screen is more expensive than a pull down. Generally some type of tensioned screen is going to help eliminate wrinkles in the screen, which will affect picture quality. I happened to get lucky and my non-tensioned pull down has no wrinkles at all. Probably the most popular screen makers are Da-Lite, Stewart, Draper, and Vutec. A lot of people are now experimenting with making their own screens.

Quote:
would include a 12 foot screen

How big is the room that you want to put this in? Are you thinking 12 feet diagonal or 12 feet wide? Generally, you want to sit about 1.5 times the screen width back from the screen to have it look good. That would put you back about 18 feet, if not more depending on what projector you choose. Also, a 12 foot screen is going to either take a very bright projector, you're going to have a relatively dim picture, or you're going to use a high gain screen.

The bottom line is that for $5-7k you should be able to get a great projector and screen.

I hope this answers some of your questions. Keep asking, and you will learn what you want to know.

Matt
"Do not use to unclog a disposal drain." - On a box of Dynamite (from Joseph Howard)

#8 of 20 Craig Robertson

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Posted March 17 2004 - 03:50 AM

first things first, what viewing distance are you planning on? there are some good calculators out there that will recommend screen sizes for your viewing distance, check out the one here as a start. a 10-12' screen is pretty darn big and you'll need to sit rather far back. generally, a smaller screen sitting closer will give a better picture than a large screen sitting farther back, you'll have better brightness and contrast (less washed out) and more "punch".
as for a 10-12' screen with a crt, you're gonna need a good 9" machine for that. i'm running a high end 8" crt on a 100" diag 16:9 and have excellent results, but i wouldn't really recommend going more than that. you'll have to start pushing the crt's harder to get the brightness on a larger screen and that will shorten tube life.
concerning the screen vs. pj, money wise, i spent about $3500 for a low hour, high end used crt and $800 on a good used 100" Stewart screen. it's a fairly high end screen that new goes for about $1700-1800 (list). granted, larger is certainly going to cost more, but even new from a dealer isn't going to cost more than any projector that i'd recommend using with it.

#9 of 20 ChrisWiggles

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Posted March 17 2004 - 07:20 AM

LOL, you won't get a new runco for 3K. They retail more for like 20-40K. But used is another story, you should have no problem getting a mint-condition 8incher for around 3K, but as stated, it is not something to be purchased lightly. Chester is correct, digitals are a lot easier to deal with, but the PQ thrown by a CRT is WAY superior in this price-range of digitals that you'd compare to.

It's easy to find used CRTs, but learning about how to set them up will definitely take some time, or you may want to budget in a professional setup. But a hobby-oriented individual should have no problem setting one up on this own with some time and effort.

See this list of important links:
http://www.avsforum.....hreadid=303577

#10 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 17 2004 - 08:33 PM

Thanks for the info. Sorry it took so long my computer has been actin up.

well the square that the screen will be in is like 15x15 with 2 exceptions. It's where the house arches like a point so the walls start commin in. Not like a triangle more like a...hmmm i dont even know what they call those. Like a triangle except the ceiling just go all the way up to a point. Eventually it stops then comes across forming a flat ceiling which i'd say could fit a ballpark from 9-12ft. It's a big room and that's just a section of it, the 15x15 box. My speakers arent in there right now cause i moved them temporarly but when they were my couch was like 8-9ft away from the tv.

My speakers were at the far corners in the back and they were only like 5-6ft away diagonally, but i was figuring since i would need to move the couch back i'd put them out sort of in the middle of nowhere farther back.

We have a pooltable in the middle of the room so if i didnt move the pooltable and moved the couch to about 13-16ft distance from the wall the back would be touching the pool table. Which would all be good and grand except my rear center sits on the pooltable to save me some trouble cause looks dont matter to me. that perfect square part of the room is roughly 15x15 so once i stand up and take 3 steps backwards away from the couch im out of the box. Thats when the room spreads out alittle more and adds 5ft on both sides. If you dont count the closet at the far end and dont count the 7ft long hallway where the door out is the room is like 25x45 ((it's a bonus room, it's over a 3 door garage, study, laundry room and a bathroom)). Well it used to be a nice lookin room but then it turned into more of a storage so on the far wall there's just boxes and stuff and even the pool table's got some junk on it. It looks basically the sameway a random person would store boxes in a basement really. But since the back has nothing to do with my home theater i dont both with it.

So that's basically what i would do if i had to move it back, we dont use the pooltable anymore so it's basically just there cause it weighs a ton. Now i'd imagine i could get the screen up to atleast 10ft no prob as long as it was somewhat close to the ground, like a foot off the ground or something. I'd want to get a pull down screen you were talkin about Matthew because i only expect to be in this house for another 3 years, 4 max and making sure any equipment i get over that time is theoritically easily mobile.

I wasnt focusing on Runcos particulary, just the only brand i've heard of until you guys named some. Those DLP/LCD can be used on a ceiling mount right?

Another question i've been wondering is do CRT projectors or any projectors have something special like...processor or some sort of box thats on the ground. Like Runco sells processors, i have absolutely no idea what they do and thought it'd be weird to have to hook a video game system up to something attached to the ceiling.
I work on Film, Animation & Sound Design in downtown Chicago.
 

#11 of 20 Chester II

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Posted March 18 2004 - 01:07 PM

Allen dude,

You are the first guy I have ever wanted to hold hands with......and tip-toe down the aisle of The Church of Home Theater....giving my advice...warning against X...having you check out Y......naming our first projector Timmy......etc.,
I'm hardly an expert but my gut sense is you need to study this stuff for at least a few weeks before making any kind of concrete decisions. Go down to Barnes and Noble and read all the home theater magazines and books that they (or some other bookstore) have. Avoid going into an actual Audio/Video store until you actually understand the basics or you'll end up purchasing something you may regret later. Type in HOME THEATER....LCD PROJECTOR...DLP PROJECTOR...in your search engine and be prepared to be overwhelmed...Ask us fools here and in similiar forums every question you can think of......
The idea here is to educate yourself enough to make an informed decision. That's all I want.....well, and a three-layer wedding cake but I'm willing to wait.......Posted Image


I love you dude,

Chester

#12 of 20 DaViD Boulet

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Posted March 19 2004 - 04:06 AM

Chester,

I'm single and available... Posted Image

Allen,

Chester is right about taking time to really "get to know" the projector territory before you dive in and spend the $$.

In addition to posting here, you should spend some time over at avscience.com. They have forums for digital projectors, CRT projectors, and the discussion there is very educational (it will sound confusing at first bcs of all the jargon thrown around but give it time).

Here's a projector primer to get you started:

Basic Overview:

Front projection displays can recreate sharper and more detailed images than most direct-view or rear-projection systems when you compare images from the same viewing angle. I'm going to use "viewing angle" a lot so here's what it means: Your ratio of picture width to viewing distance creates an angle of viewing from your eyes to each edge of the screen. This ratio would remain constant for viewing a five foot wide image from 10 feet away or viewing a 10 foot wide image from 20 feet away. Screen size and viewing distance are always related...it makes no sense to say "how big a screen should I get" without talking about how far away you plan to sit.

With *GOOD* DVD source material, the better projectors can produce film-like images from between 1.5:1 and 1.75:1 screen widths back. I tend to stick with 1.75:1 screen widths back for the most part. With Good HD source material, the best PJs can look awesome at 1.2 - 1.5:1 screen widths back.

In a moment I'll update with an explaination of CRT, DLP, LCD etc.
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#13 of 20 Chester II

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Posted March 20 2004 - 05:40 AM

David dude,

Thanks for dinner last night....had a great time...

Dude,

Chester

#14 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 22 2004 - 05:49 PM

Well that sucked, my computer was down for awhile.

chester and david sittin in a tree........

B-O-S-E-I-N-G

Chester i've done that google thing, i've typed in stuff like you've suggested all that comes up is useless stuff. The best thing ever to come out of a google search was hometheaterforum Posted Image I just wish i found it before i spent $1,500 on speakers and a reciever, but i guess i accidently didnt do SO bad ((Athena))

i typed in everything thing i could think of on CRT projectors and couldnt find anything remotely helpful. Dont you like answering my questions chester Posted Image

Doesnt seem like there's much more for me to know unless i want to learn how to build a projector. I'll save that projector for 2009.
I work on Film, Animation & Sound Design in downtown Chicago.
 

#15 of 20 ChrisWiggles

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Posted March 22 2004 - 05:55 PM

What is it that you want to know. It's all here, or at AVS.

#16 of 20 Allen Marshall

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Posted March 23 2004 - 12:40 PM

i'll give that site alittle look see and get back to ya'll
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#17 of 20 Chester II

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Posted March 23 2004 - 12:45 PM

Allen dude,

Here, try this site as a starting point...

http://www.ecoustics....ecent_Date/All

Also, check out these dudes;

http://www.projector....uyersguide.asp

be careful with projectorpeople because as soon as you leave the buyer's guide they start pushing their products

Hmmmm, how about this link;

http://www.projector...uyers_guide.cfm


Anyway dude, nobody here knows how much you are thinking of spending; your room dimensions, height, weight, hair color, etc., so let us know if the above links did anything for you.

Dude,

Chester

#18 of 20 DaViD Boulet

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Posted March 24 2004 - 06:17 AM

Chester,

thanks for the other night. Still haven't quite gotten over the experience. How can I now be satisfied with anyone else? You've ruined me!


Allen et all,

Ok, here's some projector basics (please re-read my coments about viewing angle/viewing distance earlier:


CRT:

The most evolved technology. Consists of 3 CRT red/green/blue "guns". 7" guns can resolve close to 720 progressive resolution. 8" guns can resolve close to 1080 progressive resolution...but the holy grail of CRT uses 9" guns.

Good: Incredible "true black" black level. Very good contrast ratio and color fidelity. With proper scaling/scan rate (where the scanlines just touch but do not overlap) you get a creamy-smooth image that's very film-like. Can be very cost effective if you purchase a used or refirbished unit (keep in mind you'll still need a scaler).

Bad: Generally low brightness, so works best on smaller screens with gain. Some CRT units need routine calibration to keep them aligned and performing properly...fun for the hobbiest but not plug-play for the more casual user. You need to scale all sources to proper rate to get a good picture (most digital projectors have decent scalers built-in that cover all sources). CRT units are generally BIG and look ugly--your SO won't let you put one in the living room. Can be expensive for a new "state of the art" CRT machine. CRT machines are also usually short-throw which may or may not be a problem.

LCD:

One of the more mature digital projector technologies. Consists usually of three LCD panels-one for red, green, and blue. Light passes *through* these LCD panels as light would pass through a film-slide in a slide projector.

Good: Generally at the cheaper side of projector technologies. Resolution can be outstanding with many units already at or above 1280 x 720 16x9 and many machines set to street next season at native 1920 x 1080 resolution. Colors with LCD are often outstanding. Brightness is often very good and LCD (because it's almost always 3-chip) doesn't suffer from "rainbow" artifacting of DLP. There is no "dither" in LCD to acheive graysale which can be a problem for some DLP devices. Aside from initial calibration, not much further tweaking is necessary to acheive good results.

Bad: Generally not very good black-level and/or contrast range. Also most LCD units have noticable "screen door effect" (SDE) from 1.5 screen-widths away. This is obvious on LCD machines becaues the transmissive nature of the light passing through the pixels causes the gaps between the pixels to be somewhat large by comparison because all the wiring components need to be placed between them to allow light to pass through the pixel "face". There is no "dither" noise to LCD but some LCD units can reveal "fixed pattern noise" which looks like a banding or static motion on the screen when images pan...like dirt on a window that stays in place even when the image on the other side is moving.

DLP:

DLP consists of microchips with minature mirrors on the surface that pivot to full "on" or full "off" to reflect light (or not reflect light) toward the screen. Shades of gray are acheived by DLP by the mirrors flipping on/off more or fewer times per second. Because DLP chips can flip their mirrors extreemly quickly, it's possible to build "single chip" projectors that acheive full color by alternating red/green/blue light over the one chip in series. This is usually accomplished with a rotating color-wheel. There are more expensive DLP projectors that use 3 chips together...one for each color (like LCD) which can provide a superior picture in many ways to the single chip variety.

Good: Right now, all things being equal, DLP acheives the best black level and contrast of all the digital projector technologies that are a consumer reality. Pictures can have excellent color, rich vibrant images, and good depth (black level helps this). Also, images tend to look smoother and more seamless from a 1.5 or 1.75 distance than LCD because the SDE is less obvious. Single chip machines can also be had for prices that are obtainable by many in the rear-projection HDTV market, so it's worth considering if you have light control (same goes for LCD). Aside from initial calibration, not much further tweaking is necessary to acheive good results. Right now for less than $5K you can buy native 1280 x 720 16x9 single-chip DLP machines that perform quite well.


Bad: Single chip DLP can suffer from "rainbow" or "color separation" artifacts for some viewers. The effect is sort of like a Red/Green/Blue strobe-light that flashes in your eyes when you see a bright image on a dark background and scan your eyes quickly across the screen. Some single-chip machines also have "dither" noise which can become obvious which results from the reduced on/off frequency of the mirrors since the mirrors basically have to cut their total response time into three since the same chip is alternately handling red/green/blue (most 3-chip DLPs have neither rainbows nor obvious dither, but are usually considerably more expensive). No native 1920 x 1080 support yet though next year may offer some surprises.

LCOS/SXRD/DILA

These are LCD-based technologies but rather than using light-transmissive chips like "LCD" projectors, they use *reflective* LCD chips. The result is an image that has virtually no visible "screen door effect" because the gaps between the pixels are remarkably small since all the connective architcture can be hidden beneath them. Most LCOS products are 3-chip in design because the on/off speed of the chips isn't fast enough to accomodate a single-chip design (usually). grayscale is acheived by the pixel converting the numeric value to an analog value and reflecting only this level of light rather than by controlling a series of full on/off cycles like DLP. For this reason LCOS has no "dither" noise when it produces gray...the image just "shines" continuously on the screen. The generic name for the technology is "LCOS" but Sony has tweaked their own version and called it "SXRD" and JVC has tweaked their own version and called it "DILA".

Good: After watching a calibrated LCOS projector, most folks would say that it has the potential to look the best out of all our current digital technologies that have come to market. Images can have astonishing color fidelity (usually due to the Xenon bulbs and less with the actual LCOS technology) and look very "film like" and "natural" because of the lack of any screen door effect. This next year we'll see several companies introducing native 1920 x 1080 16x9 LCOS products though they may be priced around $20K initially. Right now LCOS comes the closest to looking like "CRT" from a digital projector except for one real fault:

Bad: Right now LCOS products tend to have contrast and black level that is inferior to DLP, though that may change over the next few years as new innovations close the gap. Also, Xenon bulb projetors, for all their great color accuracy, are extremely hot to run and will heat up a small room very quickly if you don't have adequate ventalation. Once black level and contrast are solved LCOS will most likely become the "reference" standard for projection quality and even exceed CRT in image quality in all respects.




Ok, there's a start. Read that and you've got the basic jargon down to start to decifer what folks are talking about!
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#19 of 20 ChrisWiggles

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Posted March 24 2004 - 07:00 AM

That is an excellent writeup, and accurate too. Often the summaries I see on the web are poor and inaccurate, touting the newest technologies. This one is definitely not. Posted Image

#20 of 20 Chester II

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Posted March 24 2004 - 12:56 PM

David dude,

Great, concise information and the softest elbows i've ever had the pleasure to..... well, you were there right?

Dudes,

Chester




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