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See, powerline conditioners do matter (Yeah, right!!!)


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#1 of 37 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted March 15 2004 - 06:13 AM

I had so much fun going through the cable thread that I thought I'd toss this in.

Power line conditioner

I hope this thread stays as civilized and, especially, entertaining, as the cable one.

I'm no engineer, so perhaps the claims made in this article are true, but I have to think that the going price for such devices is astronomical. I do understand enough about electricity to know that "dirty" power can have demonstrable effects, but apart from a good surge protector, what else does one really need? Am I going to have to build my own little powerplant in my backyard to fully appreciate my stuff?

Let the fun begin.

P.S. Apologies for ripping off someone else's thread idea. It's all meant in good fun.
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#2 of 37 OFFLINE   SethH

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Posted March 15 2004 - 06:20 AM

I really think you have to look at the rest of your system to determine if this is right for you. If you're running a Kenwood HTIB then you certainly have no reason to spend $200-? on a power conditioner, it just doesn't make sense. BUT, if you've got $100,000 worth of speakers in a 5.1 system and $50,000 worth of components attached to them, then I imagine a $2000 power conditioner would probably make a difference.

Now most of us fall somewhere between these two situations, so I think you just have to look at your system and see if it's justified. Another option is to buy one with a good return policy and try it. If it does nothing you can notice, return it for a $30 surge protector.

#3 of 37 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted March 15 2004 - 06:27 AM

Same old BS! It was more "amusing" 10 years ago when I was novice at this hobby.I came to realize it by now that some people treat this as a "religion".

#4 of 37 OFFLINE   Scott Oliver

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Posted March 15 2004 - 06:38 AM

Quote:
Same old BS!


Way to keep it civilized right off the bat, two posts in to the thread we have a low blow thrown. Could this be a record?Posted Image

Paul, all the answers are gonna be the same on this topic as well, so you could bascially substitute Power Conditioner for Cable and then re-read the other thread over for the answer. As a bonus, you would then get to see the beautiful ring girls again!Posted Image

#5 of 37 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted March 15 2004 - 06:48 AM

Actually, you've discovered my secret plan. I was hoping this would lead to another series of ring girl photos (or just girl photos).Posted Image

Besides, I just like to throw topics out for debate and watch the fur fly (in a civilized fashion, of course).Posted Image
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#6 of 37 OFFLINE   DannyL

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Posted March 15 2004 - 07:09 AM

i would not throw balanced power into the "snake oil" category. it is a legitimate product; balanced power is even written into the electrical code. there are various manufacturers (BPT, furutech, equitech to name a few) of balanced power products and the price quoted in the review is pretty reasonable.


i have personally tried a BPT BP-2 balanced power unit in my home systems. i have tried it in both a very expensive $15,000 system and a cheapie sub- $1,000 system. i did notice significant changes in high frequency detail, widening of the soundstage, cleaner bass. for video the picture was much cleaner, more three dimensional. i noticed these differences in both systems.

balanced power is definitely the real thing. maybe the results i am seeing and hearing are the consequences of having very "dirty" power in southern california but i equate the use of a balanced power unit along the same magnitude as changing to a new pre-amp or adding a more powerful amplifier. it is not a subtle difference.

#7 of 37 OFFLINE   Scott_N

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Posted March 15 2004 - 07:33 AM

There was big difference in my 2-channel system going from a Monster power conditioner to a Shunyata. Everything sounds closer miked with the Shunyata and with better focus compared to the sound with the Monster in the chain.

#8 of 37 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted March 15 2004 - 07:34 AM

All kidding aside, what is the power conditioner supposed to be doing? The article seemed to impart magical qualities to it that were not well explained.
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#9 of 37 OFFLINE   Angelo.M

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Posted March 15 2004 - 07:40 AM

Quote:
i did notice significant changes in high frequency detail, widening of the soundstage, cleaner bass. for video the picture was much cleaner, more three dimensional.


Could have saved you a lot of $. A few of these would have produced all of the improvements you heard and saw...

Posted Image

Just hold the lemon, OK? Posted Image


#10 of 37 OFFLINE   DannyL

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Posted March 15 2004 - 09:00 AM

i prefer johnny walker. too much volume in beer needed before i get sh*tfaced. Posted Image

#11 of 37 OFFLINE   DannyL

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Posted March 15 2004 - 09:03 AM

angelo, this is how balanced power works. this excerpt is from the BPT website.


Why balanced power?

Standard AC systems have three conductors: Hot [120V]; Neutral [0V tied to ground]; and Ground. This scheme was developed over a century ago, mainly to deliver safe power for electrical trolley motors and lighting purposes. Very low levels of hum and noise were never a consideration until today.

Balanced AC is a relatively new technology [recognized in the NEC National Electrical Code in 1996] that provides the low-noise power necessary for today's advanced electronics. 120V AC balanced is simple one +60V-to-ground and one
-60V-to-ground. 120V @ 60Hz is available across the circuit, the identical voltage and frequency for which all audio/video equipment power supplies are designed. A balanced AC power system works the same way as a balanced audio circuity, by using CMR [Common Mode Rejection] phase cancellation to eliminate noise. On a balanced AC power system's ground reference, there is never any voltage or current present. Transient voltages and reactive currents which normally appear on the neutral and ground wires of a standard AC system are out of phase and sum to zero on the ground, thereby canceling out AC hum and noise. Hum, even if not plainly audible as such, creates a noise floor below which fine details become inaudible [like looking through windshield wipers during heavy rain].

In video applications, this noise creates a blurring of images and washed-out colors. By vastly reducing hum and noise, previously masqued details emerge. Rock-solid images now float from a truly black background. Soundstage width increases, giving a true sense of space between instruments. Vocalists become tangible, as though right in the room with you. Instrumental timbres sound real. Video becomes sharper, color more vidid, blacks blacker and whites whiter. You will notice improved sound and picture quality even from a standard television set! Improvements in audio bass reproduction below 100Hz are signifcant.

#12 of 37 OFFLINE   BrianAe

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Posted March 15 2004 - 09:15 AM

Right on! As the creator of the cable thread I'll jump in and say this is a good one too and I hope it produces some insightful and amusing commentary as well.

However, I also don't think line conditioners are completely bogus. I picked up a few APC line conditioners at a startup liquidation sale for like 5 bucks each. I use one for my computer, one for my TV, and one for my components.

The improvement to my TV was definitely apparent. As for the audio, hard to say.

Now, what I'd like explained to me is why these 600$ and 1000$ "audio" line conditioners are any better than mine. Which I think retail for around 150 or so.

Once again, I'm not really buying what the reviewer from secrets is saying.

#13 of 37 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted March 15 2004 - 09:23 AM

Quote:
Now, what I'd like explained to me is why these 600$ and 1000$ "audio" line conditioners are any better than mine. Which I think retail for around 150 or so.


That's what I'd like to know as well.Posted Image
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#14 of 37 OFFLINE   Michael R Price

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Posted March 15 2004 - 10:44 AM

The product names and the marketing terms are BS but the reason for having additional line filtering and isolation is not. I know we had this argument before, and just like all other electronics debates, it basically comes down to: there are differences, but no one can agree whether we can hear them or not.

#15 of 37 OFFLINE   Jerry Parker

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Posted March 15 2004 - 11:19 AM

http://www.cdw.com/s....spx?EDC=556712

Im surprised audiophiles don't buy a product like that. For 1200 dollars you get full-time protection, 2.4kW output, and a ac/dc/ac convertor that is always on. That seems to me like it would clean the power up a lot better than some passive filters, but I am not an expert on this by any means. Posted Image

#16 of 37 OFFLINE   Rajeev_s

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Posted March 15 2004 - 01:21 PM

I found the link to Chu's secret world of ring girls. Posted Image

http://www.muaythaib...

http://www.judotomi.4t.com/photo3.html

#17 of 37 OFFLINE   PaulDA

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Posted March 15 2004 - 01:46 PM

Jerry,

Audiophiles do buy something like that.

The Beast

As you can see, it is marketed directly at audiophiles.
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#18 of 37 OFFLINE   Chu Gai

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Posted March 15 2004 - 02:25 PM

Well I'm all out of ring girls...tough!

I'll offer the following as my general position on this matter. The review though, was sorely lacking in anything technical (like the blurb on what it did for his sub) that could remotely substantiate the reviewer's claims. Would've been easy to do too in that case.
To push pre-conceived notions and to keep an open mind is a fine thing. To do so using established and time tested procedures and not champion flawed ones bears more than a bit of merit.
J. Randi once said...
Quote:
However, I suppose this illustrates the dilemma of an archaeologist — or any other investigator — when offered supernatural help. If you follow it up, you're wasting precious time and resources. If you don't, well, I'm sure that guy is even now telling everyone he can get to listen, how the Time Team could have discovered wonderful things if only they had taken his advice.
I think that one of maladies of our age is this attitude, held by many otherwise intelligent people, that there are somehow "alternatives" to truth. There is an insidious concept that science is just "one way" of looking at things, and alternative schools of thinking some how should be granted equal validity, even though they are based on ideas and beliefs unfounded in reality and calling for an outdated and disproven model of how the universe works. Remind me, have we just entered the 21st or 11th Century?


Gentlemen...tastes great Posted Image
Posted Image

#19 of 37 OFFLINE   TimMc

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Posted March 16 2004 - 12:00 AM

Chu! Chu!! Chu!!! He da Man!

(Sorry 'bout that - I'm better now. And that's just one more reason I'll never be a golf professional - so I don't have to hear the guy in the rainbow tee shirt yelling that after I crush a drive - out of bounds ;~).

Since this is a topic where there can be measurable (and even positive) output from a number of products, I'd be happy with learning about the factual performance of some of them and before-and-after analyses, etc. I don't really care much about how that stuff tastes and don't want to hear about any such trials, thank you very much. I think Chu has nailed down the "tastes great" category and we certainly don't want to distract him, now do we. (And sorry, Angelo, but I must have had a bad Heffeweise experience when I didn't know better and that's never been one of my top choices.)

#20 of 37 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted March 16 2004 - 02:37 AM

Quote:
Way to keep it civilized right off the bat, two posts in to the thread we have a low blow thrown.
Next time I'll run it by you, see if you approve. Posted Image
You wanna talk about "low blow"? Read the article ! Posted Image


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