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Goodbye Comanche, we hardly knew you..


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#1 of 23 Shawn C

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Posted February 23 2004 - 08:09 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4352277/

Quote:
With about $8 billion already invested in the program, and the production line not yet started, the cancellation is one of the largest in the history of the Army.

Hopefully, SOME piece of technology can come out of this program so the entire 8 billion isn't lost. *poof*

#2 of 23 Matt Stryker

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Posted February 23 2004 - 09:06 AM

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SOME piece of technology can come out of this program so the entire 8 billion isn't lost.


Hey, it inspired that American Choppers Comanche bike, so it isn't a total writeoff =) !

I remember playing a PC game back in the early 90s called Gunship 2000, where the Comanche (then thought to only be a few years off) was one of the copters you could fly. Its a shame they couldn't get the costs down. I just hope they don't do the same thing to the F/A-22, because my area would be pretty hard hit.

#3 of 23 Todd Hochard

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Posted February 23 2004 - 09:15 AM

Is that the helicopter we see in The Hulk?Posted Image
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#4 of 23 Patrick_S

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Posted February 23 2004 - 09:42 AM

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Hopefully, SOME piece of technology can come out of this program so the entire 8 billion isn't lost. *poof*
I'm certain they will learn from their mistakes and the next program will be the better for it. Posted Image

#5 of 23 Joseph DeMartino

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Posted February 23 2004 - 11:00 AM

Quote:
Hopefully, SOME piece of technology can come out of this program so the entire 8 billion isn't lost. *poof*


Undoubtedly a lot of technology will come out of this, as is often the case with military programs. And it isn't like they were shoveling bales of twenties into an incinerator somewhere. Posted Image

The money was used to pay the salaries of a lot of engineers, factory workers, subcontractors, and buy materials that paid the salaries of the miners who extracted the ores used, the foundry workers who cast the metals and the truckers who hauled the stuff to the factories. Not to mention the waiters, supermarket workers, gas station operators and other folks that those people helped support by spending the salaries they earned. Commanche may not have been the best possible use of the billions of dollars, but nothing went "poof", either. Posted Image

Regards,

Joe

#6 of 23 david stark

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Posted February 23 2004 - 01:09 PM

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Is that the helicopter we see in The Hulk?

from my memory of playing Gunship 2000 (a microprose game I think) then the choppers in the hulk certainly looked like the commanche as depicted in gunship 2000.

#7 of 23 Karl O

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Posted February 23 2004 - 02:59 PM

I've heard that Army brass was dissappointed in the inability of the Comanche to successfully engage and neutralize The Hulk. Basically, the unflattering portrayal in the movie was the straw that broke the camel's back for this long-delayed, over-budget, next generation scout/attack helicopter. What confuses me, is that they're going to use the funds to buy more BlackHawks. Didn't they see Black Hawk Down? Posted Image

#8 of 23 Garrett Lundy

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Posted February 23 2004 - 03:13 PM

Its not the helicopter that crashes, its the 17 year old kid flying the helicopter that crashes.
"Did you know that more people are murdered at 92 degrees Fahrenheit than any other temperature? I read an article once. Lower temperatures, people are easy-going, over 92 and it's too hot to move, but just 92, people get irritable."

#9 of 23 JayV

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Posted February 24 2004 - 01:02 AM

Didn't they call the Comanche by its program name "LHX" (light helicopter, experimental) in Gunship 2000? I seem to remember an Osprey in there as well (and you had to hit the "V" button, IIRC, to set the rotors).

I think the program cancellation is terrible news for the people and areas that benefited from it, but I am delighted to see it go. Raptor can go next.

#10 of 23 LDfan

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Posted February 24 2004 - 02:36 AM

I didn't think we really needed the Comanche anyways. Spend money to upgrade the AH-64 apaches, the M1A2 and Bradley.
While on 'paper' most of our military equipment such as the ones listed above are no longer considered the latest and greatest especially since many other countries now have much newer and 'better' equipment, at least our stuff has been battle tested.

I'm not sure about the F-22 yet either. Do we really need it? I'd say no, not yet. Our fighters are some of the best in the world and with Russia really no longer mass producing fighters these days we could probably get by with upgrading the electronics, radar, etc.. on our older F-15s and F-16s.

Jeff

#11 of 23 Bill_D

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Posted February 24 2004 - 11:33 AM

Jeff,

The F-16 has been replaced by the F-35. The F-16 has strong competition at the moment. The first production F-16 was delivered in 1978. In its 25 year run, 4500 have been built and delivered all around the world in 100+ different versions. For avionics upgrades - been there, done that and still doing it. But, then again, you don't need a jammer box etc. when radar won't pick up it to begin with. It took 25 years but the competition is catching up. The advantage remains but our pilots carry more of the weight and should be given the credit.

As for the F-22, do a search on MiG 1.42.

Budget cuts can strike at any time especially on a program that spans several political terms.

#12 of 23 david stark

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Posted February 24 2004 - 12:03 PM

Quote:
Didn't they call the Comanche by its program name "LHX" (light helicopter, experimental) in Gunship 2000? I seem to remember an Osprey in there as well (and you had to hit the "V" button, IIRC, to set the rotors).

You can still remember all the keys for the controls Posted Image

From memory my version (UK version if any different) called it the commanche although it could of had the LHX code in there as well. I don't remember the Osprey in there though. I remember the apache (and longbow), super cobra, black hawk and kiowa. Maybe I'll pick it up next time since I think it's still sitting in a cupboard at my parents house.

#13 of 23 JayV

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Posted February 24 2004 - 12:18 PM

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The F-16 has been replaced by the F-35...

The F-16 might be slated to be replaced by the Joint Strike Fighter, but this has not yet happened.

Quote:
For avionics upgrades - been there, done that and still doing it. But, then again, you don't need a jammer box etc. when radar won't pick up it to begin with.

Ask around and you will find interesting problems with claims made by proponents of stealth technology -- sadly the problems seem to boil down to it doesn't work, might never work, and has yet to be validated as a strategy.

As for the procurement process, philosphy behind it, and the programs themselves, POGO published an interesting analysis here.

-j

#14 of 23 Bill_D

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Posted February 24 2004 - 01:37 PM

The F-35 is the replacement for the F-16. It won't happen until 2008 but the JSF is being implemented by the USAF to replace the F-16 and A-10 and to complement F-22. Other variants of the JSF will replace the F/A-18, AV-8B and Harrier variants.

I just happen to work for Lockheed. So, I am biased but surely you could taste the PR in my post. No, nothing is perfect but it is far from doesn't work, might never work ........

Ask Saddam if the stealth technology incorporated into the F-117 was working while he attached an empty sky after the deed was already done to his forces, buildings and bridges during the first campaign.

Regardless, the Commanche was a looker even if on paper and in video games.

#15 of 23 JayV

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Posted February 24 2004 - 11:32 PM

Ask Saddam? Dunno about that. But you can ask the British Navy about the two F-117's they tracked going inbound to Iraq. With old fire control radar. You'll find further documentation of this event in Norman Friedman's Desert Victory.

Saddam was using a centralized air defense network that was broken with SEAD and a number of other measures. A couple hours into the air campaign an 747 was stealth.

-j

#16 of 23 LDfan

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Posted February 25 2004 - 01:21 AM

The Mig 1.42 would be a good reason to build the F-22 but most likely Russia won't be producing many, if any at all due to costs. If there are any produced I'm sure other countries like China or India would be very interested in buying them since both countries are big consumers of Russian military equipment.


Jeff

#17 of 23 Bill_D

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Posted February 25 2004 - 11:41 AM

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But you can ask the British Navy about the two F-117's they tracked going inbound to Iraq.

I'm quite sure I could track them if I knew they were coming.

#18 of 23 JayV

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Posted February 25 2004 - 11:49 AM

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I'm quite sure I could track them if I knew they were coming.

They didn't. One of the results of the infamous state of the ATO at the time. They contacted control asking for information and whether they should prosecute the targets.

And as for remembering the controls, david, I couldn't begin to understand why I continue remember worthless information like that! Wish I could clean up and defrag my head like my hard drive. Let me know if you find the game; I'd love to hear more about this trip down memory lane.

-j

#19 of 23 Bill_D

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Posted February 25 2004 - 11:53 AM

Stupid move to enter friendly foreign airspace without letting somebody know. I almost don't buy it.

#20 of 23 JayV

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Posted February 25 2004 - 12:26 PM

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Stupid move to enter friendly foreign airspace without letting somebody know. I almost don't buy it.

You don't have to. Nevertheless, given problems with ATO turn-around and communication, it's right in line with Coalition experience in Desert Storm.

-j


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