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More bass!


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28 replies to this topic

#1 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 05 2004 - 10:01 AM

I have an HSU STF-2 in the front left corner of my carpeted-concrete basement (size: 13' (w) X 23' (l) X 8' (h)) and although I think its a great sub, I can't really "feel" the LFE from my seating position, which is 10-12' away. The front left corner is the best place for my sub: I've tried putting it in my listening position and I've walked around the room. In order to really "feel" anything, I really have to turn the gain up (almost 3/4) and then I feel like I'm overtaxing it, since it sometimes makes popping sounds when there are loud explosions, e.g. wall explosion in LOTR2. I'm starting to realize that the STF-2 alone is not powerful enough for my room size OR there's some sort of bass cancellation happening in my room. I wanna solve this, and here are possible solutions I've come up with:
(1) buy a 2nd HSU STF-2 and place it in the right front corner
(2) buy an SVS 25-31 PCi and place it in the right front corner
(3) buy the Dayton 10" and place it in the right front corner
(4) figure out a way to improve the LFE "feeling" from my current single STF-2

I'd love to go with options (1) or (2), but I've just recently spent a lot of money on HT gear and will have to wait 6-8 months before I make another hefty purchase. As for an immediate solution, I want to go with solution (3) because its a rather inexpensive idea. Question is: will I notice a considerable improvement if I add the Dayton to my set up? Or should I go with option (4) and how can I achieve this?

By the way, my crossover on my Yammie is set to 80 Hz, and I find that works best. Also, I've ruled out the option of bass shakers for now.

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

#2 of 29 OFFLINE   JohnGil

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Posted February 05 2004 - 10:14 AM

When I first got my 20-30pc+ I wasn't that impressed. I had it in the front right corner of my room (almost the same dims as yours). I had a peak at 22hz and a null from 33-41hz so I was missing all the good stuff from 33-41hz. I moved the sub to the rear left corner and the measured. The responses was way better and I had my 33-41hz back(HUGE difference). Try a corner closer to your listening position.

#3 of 29 OFFLINE   RobertCortez

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Posted February 05 2004 - 10:18 AM

I think there must be something else going on in your room. I have the VTF-2 in my living room, which is much larger than yours...including vaulted ceilings. I don't even turn up the volume past 30% for fear of neighbors calling the cops on me...

I have the sub sitting in the right corner from my listening position which is 10 feet away.

#4 of 29 OFFLINE   RobertCortez

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Posted February 05 2004 - 10:21 AM

oh by the way, my house is built on concrete slab...no basement. That might have something to do with it.

But still, once I turned up the volume to 50% while watching Black Hawk DOwn...I swear I thought something in my house exploded during the fight scenes.

#5 of 29 OFFLINE   brentl

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Posted February 06 2004 - 03:33 AM

2 words .. sub floor!

I live in a basement and getting body shaking bass is nearly impossible.

B

#6 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 06 2004 - 03:34 AM

Quote:
When I first got my 20-30pc+ I wasn't that impressed. I had it in the front right corner of my room (almost the same dims as yours). I had a peak at 22hz and a null from 33-41hz so I was missing all the good stuff from 33-41hz. I moved the sub to the rear left corner and the measured. The responses was way better and I had my 33-41hz back(HUGE difference). Try a corner closer to your listening position.

John, how did you determine the missing 33-41 Hz frequency band? The only way I can think of doing that is using my SPL meter and running the 15 Hz+ frequency sweep included on the Digital Video Essentials disc. Is there a better way of doing it?

I still think the front left corner is the best spot for my sub, as I've walked around the room with the sub playing in the listening position and the response was best where I currently have my sub.

#7 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 06 2004 - 03:37 AM

Quote:
2 words .. sub floor!

I live in a basement and getting body shaking bass is nearly impossible.


Yes, I agree. I still think adding the 10" Dayton to the mix may add a little more low-end, I'll probably hear it more than feel it though. Anyways, when my friend receives his Dayton, I'll try it out and post results.

My suspended ceiling is also not insulated, i.e. no fiberglass between true ceiling and t-bars/tiles. If I add insulation there, will it help the bass and the general SQ of my system (acoustics?)?

#8 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 06 2004 - 04:20 AM

Adding insulation will absorb more bass.

I have a VTF-2, also in a slightly larger room than you, and I have to keep it turned down as well due to too much rumble. It is not as tactile as the SVS 25-31PCi, but it is already more than enough for me. IMO, if the STF-2 is not enough, then I'd say move to the 25-31. Placement and room modes are your real issue though.

Don't list your gear in your signature.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#9 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 06 2004 - 04:46 AM

Quote:
Adding insulation will absorb more bass.

I have a VTF-2, also in a slightly larger room than you, and I have to keep it turned down as well due to too much rumble. It is not as tactile as the SVS 25-31PCi, but it is already more than enough for me. IMO, if the STF-2 is not enough, then I'd say move to the 25-31. Placement and room modes are your real issue though.
Thanks for the tip. I'll try moving it around and doing some SPL measurements.


Quote:
Don't list your gear in your signature.
Why not? Is that a forum rule I missed? I see a lot of others doing it.

#10 of 29 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 06 2004 - 07:29 AM

It interferes with the search function, bringing up every post of yours with any of the keywords listed, regardless of relevance. Not to be a Nazi (not picking on you Posted Image ), but actually, it is a forum rule, and often missed.

HTF will allow you space somewhere to list your gear and you can provide a link to your gear.

I have a wonderful null on one side of the couch in my listening area too. It sucks, but I don't have many options in my room either.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#11 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 06 2004 - 11:32 AM

Quote:
When I first got my 20-30pc+ I wasn't that impressed. I had it in the front right corner of my room (almost the same dims as yours). I had a peak at 22hz and a null from 33-41hz so I was missing all the good stuff from 33-41hz. I moved the sub to the rear left corner and the measured. The responses was way better and I had my 33-41hz back(HUGE difference). Try a corner closer to your listening position.
John, how did you determine the missing 33-41 Hz frequency band? The only way I can think of doing that is using my SPL meter and running the 15 Hz+ frequency sweep included on the Digital Video Essentials disc. Is there a better way of doing it?

I still think the front left corner is the best spot for my sub, as I've walked around the room with the sub playing in the listening position and the response was best where I currently have my sub.

#12 of 29 OFFLINE   Drew_W

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Posted February 06 2004 - 01:48 PM

Good call on the signature John. This should be put in bold in the rules since the Search feature is extremely valuable on a site like this.

Please fix it ASAP MuneebM.
I gave up on tracking my collection and actually started watching what I have.

#13 of 29 OFFLINE   JohnGil

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Posted February 06 2004 - 02:03 PM

Quote:
John, how did you determine the missing 33-41 Hz frequency band? The only way I can think of doing that is using my SPL meter and running the 15 Hz+ frequency sweep included on the Digital Video Essentials disc. Is there a better way of doing it?


I down loaded sine wave test tones from 16-120hz and played them from my dvd player while measuring each one with a radio shack SPL meter then plotted them in a graph available on line.

I wasn't saying for you to put your sub in the rear left corner it was mainly to show that different locations have different effects. Note: sub frequencies are hard to judge by ear.

#14 of 29 OFFLINE   CurtisSC

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Posted February 06 2004 - 02:29 PM

It is OK to turn the gain up on the sub.

The early STF-2's had a less sensitive gain control. Call Hsu Research and they will verify this. They had gotten feedback from VTF-2 and VTF-3 owners saying with a sensitive gain control it was hard to calibrate the sub in some instances.

But I agree with John, placement and room modes are probably the issue. The SPL meter is your best friend.
curtis
Manhattan Beach, California

#15 of 29 OFFLINE   Geoff L

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Posted February 07 2004 - 03:50 PM

Hi MuneebM

First off, even if you had a good smooth sub freq response at your listening postion, the concrete slab makes getting the tactile feel much tuffer to accomplish.
A wood floor gets the tactile feel going much easier, tho enough subs and concrete will shake too..Posted Image

The first thing you need to do is get a bass test disc or burn one with bass tones and plot the actual freq responce your currently getting.

Then mess/play with different placements, re-measuring each time. Don't forget to test your phase also when moving the sub away from the front mains especialy.
You do not need to measure ever single tone, 16-17-18-19-20Hz on up, but every 5Hz or so on up, 15-20-25-30-etc. When you notice a big jump up or down in spl you can then zereo in on it's center with closer Hz measurments. You more than likely will certainly find a couple or more nice peeks and nulls.

Measuring with a test disc & spl meter (also be sure to add the proper correction factors), is a pain in the ass. But, this is the only way to really see what is happening in your room at your seating postion (with your sub and it's freq response).

Start with the place that you feel is getting you the best bass first & start measuring fro your seating position. Moving the sub just a foot one way or another can actually make quite a difference in some rooms. Naturaly the closer the sub is to you, the less it should have to work to get louder spl levels easier. Also the closer to a corner will achive the most free spl gain.
This dose not mean it will be the best place (nicest wanted freq response), only that louder should come easier for the sub as it will exicite the most room modes.

=======>
A HTF search here for "measuring sub woofer response", "sub woofer placement", "sub test tones" etc, will bring all the reading you could want.
=======>

When running test tones, DO NOT do this at loud spl levels. 80~90-db spl tone levels "max" should be more than enough, and rest the sub after a period of time as the VC's will heat up quickly with test tones. The louder they are the quicker the VC heat up.
More than one poster has posted a thread about blowing his sub up running test tones at excessive spl's!

Lastly, some rooms are just plain bass hell. Hopefully yours is not, but if it turns out to be a tuffy, (horrid freq responce regardless of placment), a Parametric EQ may be your only hope to get a fairly smooth response. The BFD is a popular Pari sub EQ and is quite reasonable in cost, around 100 to 125.00 and worth every penny IMO. Many of use it and can do wonders if one wants or needs the use of a sub pari eq....

Another Sub:
As to adding the Dayton-10, wait to add anything till you see just whats going on in your room.
2 subs are even tuffer to get a good freq response, unless they are the ~{same exact sub and stacked or located together}~. Having 2 subs (the same brand/model or not) and in totally different locations can work, but generaly it is much more diffuclut to get a smooth response from them without a lot of meauring, and then many times a a Pari Eq is needed.
This is not to say it can't work, just would smartest to start with what you have now and see just what is really happening and what placment might be able to do for you.

Cheers
Geoff
~{ Speak of what you know, listen to what you don't.! }~  

#16 of 29 OFFLINE   Chris A H

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Posted February 07 2004 - 09:23 PM

Quote:
I really have to turn the gain up (almost 3/4) and then I feel like I'm overtaxing it, since it sometimes makes popping sounds when there are loud explosions, e.g. wall explosion in LOTR2.

The STF-2 has had QC issues, many leak air and give off a strange sound when taxed. You should check the Hsu forums for details.

BTW, I had a STF-2 and ended up returning it. Have an SVS now and it made a huge improvement in bass. I'd go with your SVS option in a heartbeat...

#17 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 16 2004 - 04:24 PM

I'm gonna get a Dayton 10" and add it to the mix. Ideally I'd wanna get an SVS or second HSU, but for the price, the Dayton is a no-brainer. I've recently tested it in combination with my HSU and the results were very impressive, see here: http://www.hometheat....hreadid=184957

#18 of 29 OFFLINE   Nathan Stohler

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Posted February 17 2004 - 01:13 AM

Quote:
It interferes with the search function, bringing up every post of yours with any of the keywords listed, regardless of relevance.


MuneebM, your sig is fine because your equipment list is in a jpeg (I thought you had done this intentionally to get around the forum rule). The search capability won't be able to search for text in pictures.

--Nathan

#19 of 29 OFFLINE   MuneebM

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Posted February 17 2004 - 01:35 AM

Now my sig is fine, I used to have it as text and that's why I put it all in a JPEG, to get around the forum rule.

#20 of 29 OFFLINE   Nathan Stohler

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Posted February 17 2004 - 02:12 AM

Gotcha...I guess I posted a couple weeks too late Posted Image


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