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Considering GR AV3s, here come the questions.


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#41 of 138 Danny Richie

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Posted January 28 2004 - 10:31 AM

Thomas, Some how you still manage to through in some kind of untruth in there and twist things.

For starters.

Quote:
3)12 posts later, you post questioning the speed, accuracy and high end extension of the 281's


That is pure BS.

I said.

Quote:
It will not however have the air moving capabilities of the 281's using a pair of 8 inch woofers.


First word "it" referring to our A/V-3.

This is all that was said about the 281.

References to design trade offs of using smaller drivers in our new A/V-3 were in regard to our earlier version of that model that used larger 6.5" woofers.

The 281 speakers were not again mentioned or implied.

Quote:
I'll leave it to others to conclude who has issues and the attitude.


Oh I have had issues with some of the things you posted that I did address you on and some that I did not.

You posted things that ranged from simply false or at best ignorantly opinionated to actually making a post to someone that suggested that they clone a kit that we offer rather than buy it, and that, to me, was offensive, and aggravating, and I have not forgotten that.

Quote:
When you post gross erroneous or out of context generalizations such as these.....


Gross erroneous or out of context generalizations?

You are grasping to nit-pick.

I give you this one pit-picker.

Quote:
A transmission line actually increases Sd


It increases the effectiveness of the Sd and not actual Sd.

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Is one tweeter louder than another because it moves more air?


It is an erroneous or out of context generalization for me to ask such a question?

Quote:
You need not push a lot of air to make a loud noise. Many speakers can play fairly loud and move little to no air at all, horns, planar's, electrostat's...
You can create a loud sound by hitting an anvil with a hammer and move little air.


Frequency dependant sure. A generalization? You can say that if you want. But it is still a true statement, and your nit-picking was not needed.

Quote:
You can also push a lot of air and not make a lot of noise.


True again.

Ever hear of a silent but deadly? Posted Image Ahhh, I feel better now. From laughing that is.

Okay back on a serious note.

Quote:
It does give one cause to ponder


You didn't just ponder. You posted. Get those punches in.

Quote:
Enough is enough..............


Now this is the most true statement that you have made.

I agree.

#42 of 138 RichardHOS

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Posted January 28 2004 - 02:06 PM

tsk tsk.

#43 of 138 Hank Frankenberg

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Posted January 29 2004 - 12:14 AM

Well, that was embarrassing. Sorry I brought up the TL subject. Can't we all just be friends. Speaker designers will always have disagreements. Let's accept that and keep such discussions straightforward and factual. Us neophytes can learn from such discussion. I sense some old hurts here. Those things can fester beyond reason. I suggest you guys have a private, respectful exchange and at the end respect each other and agere to disagree on acoustic design points. You guys have too much to offer the DIY world to avoid good design discussions. This reminds me of the "discussions" between DanW and the SVS guy 4 years ago.

If anyone is still reading at this point, here's an indoor pic of my new towers:
http://www.geocities...ond1/AV3-01.jpg
Posted Image
The tower to the left is my 4-yr old SCH tower.

#44 of 138 Justin Ward

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Posted January 29 2004 - 01:15 AM

Quote:
If anyone is still reading at this point, here's an indoor pic of my new towers:


I'm still here. Those speakers look even more impressive after harvesting. I must say I would love to build a set of Av3s if I cold get them to look like that.

#45 of 138 Ronnie Ferrell

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Posted January 29 2004 - 01:38 AM

Hank, those look awesome! How much of a secret is your secret oil recipe? Posted Image Also, do you get your rosewood veneer locally or from Tape-Ease? If from Tape-Ease, is that the rosewood with "Mostly Dark" or with "Color Variation" like the website denotes?

[sad]...I'm not even going to acknowledge the "OTHER" post in this thread...[/sad]

Justin, glad to see you stuck around!


Ronnie
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Meet our new boy, Mousse![/c]

#46 of 138 Justin Ward

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Posted January 29 2004 - 01:54 AM

So, now that I've established that either the HE 10.1s or AVs look good to me.

I guess its a matter of sound that will decide. I think the AV3s are more refined but I think the 10.1s would be better for my taste in music.

Hank, how do you find rock music on your AV3s?


I should include that for the price of AV3s with the sonicaps I could build the 10.1s and have almost enough left over to build a sealed DPL12.

#47 of 138 george king

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Posted January 29 2004 - 02:12 AM

Hank,

Those are mighty fine looking speakers. Very nice work.

Posted Image

#48 of 138 Jon Hancock

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Posted January 29 2004 - 03:16 AM

Hi Hank,

Lovely work as usual from you! Posted Image It's not easy finding veneer that nice!

Not to gloat, but Hank does sometime share his secret recipe with folks if you ask him real nice... he's that kind of gentleman...

Works great on Oak and walnut, too!


~Jon
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#49 of 138 MikeSRC

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Posted January 29 2004 - 03:26 AM

Very nice work Hank! Posted Image

Are the tops rosewood as well or something else? I'm just seeing a reflection. I ask becuase I was considering putting a gloss black top plate (similar to the Onix Rockets) on mine.
Enjoy!

Mike
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#50 of 138 Hank Frankenberg

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Posted January 29 2004 - 05:51 AM

Thanks guys!:b
Ronnie: The veneer is from my NOS - it's a 4 x 8 sheet I bought 4 years ago. I buy from TapeEze now, but haven't bought rosewood from them. I'd suggest calling him to ask about his current stock if you want some contrasting figure.
Justin: I'm not a rocker, but I do listen to music at realistic volume levels and wind and percussion instruments played loud are quite distinguishable. Ahh the only downside to DIY speakers - you can't do side-by-side comparisons. But, the other brand would likely play louder for your rock.
Jon: Thanks! I've used Watco Danish oil prior to these cabinets, but I did indeed use new a 3-part formula on these, and it is a bit similar to the Watco.
Mike: The tops are Rosewood also. The extreme low angle view of the top of that cabinet in the photo makes it appear "glossy", which it is not - sort of an optical illusion. The only reason I'd consider something other than veneer on the tops would be if the speakers are placed in harm's way, like by a bar or eating area where someone might set a beverage glass on them and leave a water mark. Remember, oil finish is the poorest protection against liquid spills. But, it's the absolute best-looking finish and really brings out the beauty of wood grain/figure. Sensuous beauty - people can't resist touching the veneer.

#51 of 138 Hank Frankenberg

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Posted January 29 2004 - 05:58 AM

The jury is instructed to ignore the double post by the witness, as he was understandbly, unquestionably, SMITTEN by the Diana Krall Live in Paris DVD that is playing. See below.

#52 of 138 Justin Ward

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Posted January 29 2004 - 06:00 AM

Quote:
Justin: I'm not a rocker, but I do listen to music at realistic volume levels and wind and percussion instruments played loud are quite distinguishable. Ahh the only downside to DIY speakers - you can't do side-by-side comparisons. But, the other brand would likely play louder for your rock.


Loud volume is not really nescessary. My current Paradigm Titans are only 88 dB/w/m and they play plenty loud for me. I looking more for a speaker thats characteristics just make it sound good with rock.

#53 of 138 Michael R Price

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Posted January 29 2004 - 10:06 AM

One thing I think we can actually agree on, is that Hank's speakers are really pretty. Posted Image

Justin, in my limited experience, speakers (and even amplifiers) that have the *ability* to play louder, sound generally better... (more lively, powerful, or something like that) for rock music at reasonable levels. In other words, I think you should go for the HE10s, or Kit281s if you want bass without needing a sub. I think the improvement in midrange quality and general "smoothness" of the GR speakers (compared to, say, Kit281s which I did hear along with A/V-2s) may not be worthwhile for rock music... where size does matter.

#54 of 138 Justin Ward

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Posted January 29 2004 - 10:39 AM

Ok, that's pretty much what I was thinking, glad to hear others think the same way.

I'm just wondering about the bass on the 10.1s is like. I was under the impression the 10" mid/woofer would have ample bass but would it be enough to go sub-less for a while?

#55 of 138 Michael R Price

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Posted January 29 2004 - 12:03 PM

Justin, the 10" woofer is a pro woofer with a relatively short Xmax, also the box is relatively small for something with that high efficiency. The anechoic response of the HE10.1 in standard form has a -3db point of 65Hz, so it's probably good to 45 or 50Hz if you place them near walls. They should sound reasonably good alone, but I would personally not use this speaker without a subwoofer. The HE12.1 (much larger box) and Kit281 (much lower efficiency and more displacement) seem significantly better as far as bass goes. I'm using my Kit281s full range, and while I would like to add a subwoofer, the bass from these speakers is good enough that it isn't really a priority. They have clean output to 25Hz and a window-shaking capability above 40Hz. I think the performance of the HE12 is similar except they don't go quite as deep.

Of course if you could save a little more money and put together a subwoofer, that would make the HE10.1 and other bass-limited designs much more appealing.

#56 of 138 Justin Ward

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Posted January 29 2004 - 01:18 PM

Yeah, I suppose that will be my route. For the price differences between the 12.1 and 10.1 I've got a good chunk of the price for a DPL 12. I'll try the speakers alone and with my Tempest to see whats best.

Now, all I have to do is get the money for the kit.....

#57 of 138 Michael R Price

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Posted January 29 2004 - 02:27 PM

Wait, if you already have a Tempest, why did you want to not use a subwoofer?

#58 of 138 Hank Frankenberg

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Posted January 29 2004 - 04:34 PM

And furthermore, regarding the Xmax, StD, motor constuction and maget material affecting the...uh...linear, limited, undistorted VC travel...uh.....

DAMN! I'm SMITTEN!
Received today: "Diana Krall Live In Paris". OMG, I am uber-impressed. Okay, everybody (including our local Austin group) uses "chicks singing" CD's to evaluate systems, particularly speakers. Many are the times I've sat through sessions, forcing my entire body to be still and pay attention to the music, while the rest of the audience is mesmerized, not by the "music", but by the critical listening session, carefully, and oh so surgically delving into the current recording for the least bit of "difference" in the equipment under scrutinty.
Okay, soul-bearing moment: it was NOT her looks, though very nice, and it was not her singing, although engaging, top-shelf and very nuanced. It WAS her piano-playing!!! She is the first young female jazz pianist I've seen/heard, that at her age, has that level of playing maturity. Give her a few more years of jazz development. I do hope that she devotes most of her available hours to her piano-playing. Her fast-paced tempo jazz piano, while at first a complete envelopment, makes one think only of how great she could become. Her acknowledgement of Nat King Cole as the inspiration of that set of music is so spot-on and so self-humbling as to elicit a genuine respect for this young lady. Yes, I am smitten.

#59 of 138 Brian Bunge

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Posted January 29 2004 - 04:53 PM

Oh hell, Hank's succumbed to the Diana Krall syndrome. I guess I'll have to find a new speaker-building buddy now. Posted Image

I've only heard one of her CD's and I must admit that some of the songs are very nice. I just wish she'd not open her mouth and just PLAY!

Put me down in the "I just don't get it" category.
Brian Bunge
RAD Home Theater

#60 of 138 Hank Frankenberg

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Posted January 29 2004 - 11:22 PM

Brian boy, just listen to her playing. Get the DVD and watch her fingers, but more importantly, watch the approving, accepting smiles on the faces of the older players during her piano-without-singing solos. They speak volumes. That's what music is all about.

Surely she'd like to live in Austin...


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