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Power conditioners and amps


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#1 of 92 OFFLINE   joel jocson

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Posted January 19 2004 - 02:25 PM

Doing some research on power condtioners/ surge protectors. Anyone have any comments on what kind of impact these things have on amps. I started to wonder if the conditioners could restrict the current the amp needs thus degrading quality. Whats you two cents on this??

#2 of 92 OFFLINE   Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Posted January 19 2004 - 03:45 PM

If you have an amp that pulls a lot of current, it would definitely be a concern. Many amp manufactures recommend not using them, and plugging directly into the wall. If you do use one, make sure it's a heavy-duty model capable of handling the entire circuit load (15A, 20A etc.) Never plug an amp into one that has a skinnier power cable than the amp.
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#3 of 92 OFFLINE   Scott_N

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Posted January 20 2004 - 02:35 AM

Chang Lightspeed and Shunyata make Power conditoners that don't limit current. I'm getting a Shunyata Guardian this weekend and a Shunyata Hydra Model-2 a couple of months from now.

#4 of 92 OFFLINE   DanielG

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Posted January 21 2004 - 02:29 AM

Scott,

I'm curious about the Shunyata products particularly for use for my amps - I was thinking about using the Model 2 for a plasma tv and a two channel Bryston amp that are apart from the rest of my components - but perhaps the Guardian would work as well. What I don't know is how much these things costs..... What should I expect to pay?

As I think through what to buy, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate on why you chose Shunyata as opposed to other brands out there.

Thanks for your help!!

--Dan

#5 of 92 OFFLINE   Scott_N

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Posted January 21 2004 - 02:51 AM

Daniel

The Shunyata Guardian retails for $395 and I don't know how much the Model 2 retails for but the Model-8 retails for $1995 so I guess the Model-2 would cost around $600-700. As far as choosing Shunyata I wanted to get away from Monster Power Conditoners and my three choices were Shunyata, Chang and Custom Power Cord Company. I decided against the CPCC because my dealer said it didn't provide surge protection and it's power cord isn't very flexible. I did a in home demo of the Guardian and a Chang CLS 3200 and thought the Guardian had a slightly cleaner sound than the Chang. I plan to have all Shunyata cables in my system someday so system synergy played a part in my decision also. The Chang's are very good also and have seperate analog and digital plug-ins so either would be a good choice.

#6 of 92 OFFLINE   JohnnyN

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Posted January 21 2004 - 02:53 AM

Can you guys provide links to these Shunyata products? All I know are panamax and monster... I think both are over hyped and priced.

#7 of 92 OFFLINE   DanielG

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Posted January 21 2004 - 02:57 AM

Scott - Thanks for your thoughts....now I just have to find a dealer in Chicago....

Here is a link: http://shunyata.mmau...?navitemid=2336

#8 of 92 OFFLINE   Scott_N

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Posted January 21 2004 - 03:07 AM

Daniel

Music Direct sells both Chang and Shunyata.

#9 of 92 OFFLINE   Chu Gai

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Posted January 21 2004 - 03:41 AM

If you're looking at providing genuine surge protection, you're better served by looking at having a whole house protection device installed which would be located at either the breakers or the meter. While certainly not sexy, it provides not only superior protection but far more cost effective since all the appliances would be protected in your home. Then you could always go with relatively inexpensive point of use devices and if you're really worried about 'current limiting', then just get a surge device designed to handle copiers.

#10 of 92 OFFLINE   Scott_N

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Posted January 21 2004 - 04:43 AM

So I take it that you don't believe in line conditoning?

#11 of 92 OFFLINE   Robert Cowan

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Posted January 21 2004 - 04:53 AM

look at richard gray products. they dont do any current limiting, and offer HUGE benefits for audio and video. you dont even have to have something plugged into them for the benefit, just as long as its on the same circuit, it will filter.

#12 of 92 OFFLINE   Chu Gai

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Posted January 21 2004 - 05:21 AM

I don't have any problems with my AC and whatever grunge is there, doesn't seem to affect matters. If I had a problem I'd take a stab at identifying the source, besides, one can always run a separate line off a subpanel along with an isolation transformer. It could be that some equipment out there has issues with nominal amounts of stuff that's present on the AC but my interpretation of that was that it was broken and needed repair. Regardless, my comments were directed specifically towards surge protection.

#13 of 92 OFFLINE   Jason_Reynolds

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Posted January 21 2004 - 06:04 AM

I like the monster stuff, seems very well built. You can't go wrong with Richard Gray stuff though

#14 of 92 OFFLINE   joel jocson

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Posted February 07 2004 - 02:23 PM

Chu

In situations where one can not use whole house surge protection (say an appartment), what would you recommend then??

#15 of 92 OFFLINE   Chu Gai

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Posted February 07 2004 - 06:40 PM

1) Renter's insurance with a specific provision for full equipment replacement, none of that pro-rated crap, in the event of theft, destruction due to surges, water damage, accident. Make a few phone calls, it exists and premiums vary by company.

2) If you're in a modern big building, likely there's surge protection for the facility to begin with even if building management doesn't realize it. You could try asking them. that'll give you some sense of what's going on.

At that point you need to do a little detective work on your own to make sure your outlets are wired properly and that you've got some kind of ground. Home Depot has a $4 outlet tester. You plug it in and look at the lights. It'll tell you if everything is wired correctly and if you've even got a ground. If you see problems, either fix it yourself or call building management to inform them of a miswiring situation. The reason for doing this is that if you don't have a ground, or it's swapped with the neutral, you're toast no matter what you do.

Next, you need to assess your level of concern...call it paranoia analysis. If you believe that your components are capable of radiating RFI back down the line through the power cords and that can affect other components in your system, then you choose an approach where each pair of outlets on your surge protector have their own EMI/RFI circuitry. Belkin has a product called the A/V Isolators. Runs around $100 but they also sell refurbished for around $60. TrippLite sells the IsoBar line. Runs in the neighborhood of %50. Whatever you choose, make sure your cable going to the TV also runs through it. Everything in the food chain has to go through the unit otherwise you've opened the back door.
If you don't think that's a problem, then buy something like the Stratitec. Costs around $20 at Sam's Club or a bit more online at directron.com.

The above are MOV based units. An alternative would be those based on Silicon Avalanche Diodes (SAD). Telco's use that approach (in conjunction with other means) and it's virtually always specified in contracts with large scale installations of telecommunication equipment by say government agencies. In fact you'll see that PS Audio uses that approach but they use the term transorbs. They're pricey. Transtector, a sister company of PolyPhaser, the acknowledged world leader and expert in serious lighting protection, sells a unit for about $100. You've got to buy direct though. If you're interested, post back and I'll give a link to the product. SAD's are about an order or more faster in response and do phenomenally well with little glitches.
MOV based devices, properly sized, which means more joules the better, are quite adequate.

Again, just assess your level of paranoia and we can find a cost effective solution without you having to lose your hair over this. OTOH, I can suggest ridiculous approaches certain to leave you much poorer.

I had a little more to say about current limiting here which also includes some correspondance between myself and Bryston.

#16 of 92 OFFLINE   joel jocson

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Posted February 09 2004 - 12:24 PM

what about using an isolation transformer like tripplite. What do they have to offer with regards to protection??

#17 of 92 OFFLINE   Robert Cowan

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Posted February 09 2004 - 12:29 PM

i would just like to add my 2 cents.

i got two monster hts5100's a little bit ago. before i got these, i had NO issues with power whatsoever. even when the heat or hot tub kicked on, i would get nothing on tv or through audio, lights didnt even dim. its a very new house.

i had a problem with my tv, it had a small saturation issue with it. my roommate ONLY knew it had a problem with it, not what the problem was. when i plugged these in, there was a pretty large difference in the video quality. he walked in and thought i had gotten the tv repaired. he commented that it looked sharper and cleaner.

#18 of 92 OFFLINE   Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Posted February 09 2004 - 12:46 PM

Quote:
what about using an isolation transformer like tripplite. What do they have to offer with regards to protection??
Isolation transformers do exactly what the name implies – it is a separate power source from the other household circuitry. They don’t protect anything.

Regards,
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#19 of 92 OFFLINE   Chu Gai

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Posted February 09 2004 - 01:53 PM

It depends in part where it's located. If you're interested Wayne, I'll send you a document regarding their use. It's a position paper from a company that sells it so you've got to factor in that they'll be highlighting specific advantages. Let me know.
It's pricey though.

#20 of 92 OFFLINE   joel jocson

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Posted February 09 2004 - 02:56 PM

Chu

So which SAD based protectors are you referring to that run around 100 bucks??