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Star Trek VI transfer AR (UPDATE: Martin Blythe responds! see msg. 103)


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#141 of 155 Damin J Toell

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Posted January 21 2004 - 09:42 PM

Quote:
Sorry, but it's already true as I explained why in several posts.


Your explanation doesn't nearly suffice to prove that a "vast change" or "growing trend" has occurred. To prove that a change (especially a "vast" one) has occurred or that a trend is occurring, one must provide both the before and the after of the situation, and then a comparison of the two. You've only done one part of this. Your posts have only provided the after: the situation you believe currently exists with regard to films being recut. You then claim to be making a comparison. However, you do not provide the before. It's impossible to make a comparison of the after without knowing the before. You've got nothing with which to compare it. You haven't provided any foundation for the claim that films were recut with less frequency in the past; you just keep repeating that it happens more now. When I and others provide you with some historical perspective, you ignore it and keep repeating that it happens more now.

Without both the before and the after, no comparison of the two can be made, and thus no change or trend can be proven. Since you provide only the after, you have proven neither a change nor a trend.

Quote:
Previously re-cut movies before 1997 doesn't disprove my point about a growing, recent trend and DVD has *some* kind of influence.


No, it doesn't disprove the point that the DVD format has some influence on the way older films are now released. It does, however, work to disprove the claim that there has been "a vast change in the last seven or eight years compared to the previous hundred or so years" or that there is "recent trend" in this regard. Information regarding the frequency of pre-1997 recut films is absolutely essential to proving either. Again, without a comparison of the two sets of data (pre- and post-1997), no change or trend can be proven.

Quote:
As stated to the effect previously, Alien is the most recent example we have seen.

Alien, like another film in your list, The Exorcist, is a rather ironic example that actually does more to disprove your claim about the history of the practice: both films have sequels that were recut long before DVD. So, yes, while Alien was recently recut for theatrical and DVD release, Aliens was recut before the DVD format was a glimmer in anyone's eye. And, yes, while The Exorcist was recently recut for theatrical and DVD release, The Exorcist II: The Heretic was recut during its theatrical run before even the laserdisc format hit the market. Four films, two series, two recuts pre-DVD, two recuts post-DVD. Not a very good argument in favor of a new DVD-spurred trend that signifies a major historical change.

And, of course, one of the other films you cite to, Star Wars, was surely not affected by DVD in its 1997 Special Edition release, or we wouldn't still be waiting for it to come out on the format 7 years later.

Quote:
On any rate, I have no more to say about the matter as I agree with the moderator that this has gotten off topic.

Even said moderator has joined in on the discussion, but, oh well...

DJ

#142 of 155 Robert Crawford

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Posted January 21 2004 - 10:41 PM

Damin,
A warning has already been issued in this thread so I hope you're done with your point of contention. No more, please!



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#143 of 155 Bill Williams

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Posted January 22 2004 - 01:00 AM

I, for one, am glad that we heard from Martin Blythe. It shows true genuine interest that people from the studios actually visit these boards and participate in these messages, chats, etc. about their film, TV, and DVD products.

I hope, when the Generations: SE comes out later this year, we'll get to hear from Mr. Blythe again with more info about the DVD.

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#144 of 155 Michael Reuben

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Posted January 22 2004 - 01:34 AM

Quote:
Even said moderator has joined in on the discussion, but, oh well...

Said moderator also suggested starting a new thread for this side discussion. If anyone wants to continue on a subject other than the ST:VI DVD, please take the suggestion.

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#145 of 155 Tim_P_76

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Posted January 22 2004 - 03:26 AM

This thread is about a disproven topic. Why have two threads about one movie going at the same time. At least combine them and maybe we'll get rid of the posting problems. To me this is just ruining the wait to get this and watch the disc.
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#146 of 155 Mike Graham

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Posted January 22 2004 - 03:39 AM

This thread is a wonderfully nerdy example of how Trek fans (who seemed to have disappeared since DS9 wrapped) are coming out of the wood work to pick up the SEs. A tranfser that wasn't director approved would cause absolute uproar on the internet!Posted Image

Thanks to Mr. Blythe for cleaning this up! In truth, all of the Trek SEs have been great so far! Keep up the good work! I personally can't wait for Tuesday to come...

#147 of 155 Dan Hitchman

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Posted January 22 2004 - 07:06 PM

I said it when Austin Powers IMoM was released on DVD, and I'll say it again now:

2:1 does not seem very theatrical to me and looks rather odd. In fact to make matters worse, if any of the effects shots were hard matted to 2.35:1, some of the information would be lopped off the sides. With Austin Powers, they actually switched back to 2.35:1 for some opticals since they would have had to have cropped the frame.

As much as I respect the filmmaker's vision, this decision to release ST VI in 2:1 is rather peculiar since all other Star Trek films on DVD are at their theatrical ~2.35:1 ratios, even the ones Meyers helmed previously. It kind of throws off the flow and "look" of the series IMHO just as Cameron's decision to shoot Aliens in 1.85:1 when the previous film was 2.35:1 was a bit jarring, and even more so since the next two films switched back to 2.35:1.

Obviously this is my opinion, but I think it's a valid one nonetheless: this is yet another reason why Super 35 has got to go!

I also think cropping a 2.35:1 movie to 2:1 (or 1.78:1 as some studios are doing now) is just as weird since the framing becomes far more cramped (as the helicopter aerial assault in Apocalypse Now clearly shows).

OAR forever!!

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#148 of 155 Ernest Rister

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Posted January 22 2004 - 07:58 PM



Nope - different versions of established films date all the way back to the silent era, which is why certain "lost" cuts are legendary to this day. I think James Cameron said it best in the liner notes for The Abyss: SE -- there is no one "true version" of a movie, because what you see in one country has been adapted for your own cultural standards and the venue in which you are viewing the film. In other words, there are always "multiple versions" of movies, and the version you get is based on where you live in the world and where you're watching you're movies. Theater, network TV, airplanes, foreign language dubs, unrated cuts on laserdisc, VHS and home video, pan and scan, OAR...etc. I remember being a tweener and seeing versions of Jaws and Superman on network TV that had their deleted scenes cut back into the movie (or in the case of Halloween, new footage shot for the network broadcast). "Road Show" releases of various musicals and event titles were sometimes cut down for general release in the 60's and early 70's. Sometimes the idea of the "true cut" of a movie is lost when considering the demands of the global marketplace and the audience expected to see the film.

The latest iteration of this example is Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films, with one version prepared for theaters and one version prepared for DVD, while the director refuses to call one or the other the "true cut". Likewise, Cameron stands behind his theatrical version of The Abyss as well as the SE.

"Dances With Wolves has been restored to its initial "director's cut" by Kevin Costner."

And it is ironic that Kevin Costner was quoted in this week's Entertainment Weekly stating that he had little to do with the "longer" version of Dances With Wolves, intimating that the theatrical version is his preferred version.

#149 of 155 Bryan Tuck

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Posted January 23 2004 - 12:54 AM

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but I believe I've read in several places where the F/X for Star Trek VI were shot in the 2:1 ratio, and cropped to 2.35:1 for theatrical exhibition.

Once again, I would prefer the 2.35:1 theatrical ratio, but since this is a director-approved transfer, and it's not actually cropped (or at least very minimally cropped), I'm okay with it. I feel the same way about Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Apocolypse Now I'm not sure, since it is actually cropped on the sides.

At any rate, I'm excited about this release and am looking forward to snapping it up on Tuesday. Thanks again for chiming in, Mr. Blythe.
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#150 of 155 Randy A Salas

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Posted January 23 2004 - 02:25 AM

Quote:
I also think cropping a 2.35:1 movie to 2:1 (or 1.78:1 as some studios are doing now) is just as weird since the framing becomes far more cramped (as the helicopter aerial assault in Apocalypse Now clearly shows).

But the reverse is true of Star Trek VI; the theatrical version is the one that was cropped.

Quote:
And it is ironic that Kevin Costner was quoted in this week's Entertainment Weekly stating that he had little to do with the "longer" version of Dances With Wolves, intimating that the theatrical version is his preferred version.


Yet that's at odds with the fact that he went back into the studio to record commentary for just the scenes that had been added.

His comments in the liner notes offer a clearer picture of his feelings: "Making an extended version is by no means to imply that the original 'Dances With Wolves' was unfinished or incomplete. Rather, it creates an opportunity for those who fell in love with the characters and the spectacle of the film to experience more of both."

Basically, he likes the way it was done originally, but knows that fans wanted more and signed off on it. And he wouldn't have sat down to record new commentary for the extended scenes if he weren't willing to do so or unhappy with the results.
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#151 of 155 Chet_F

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Posted January 23 2004 - 08:17 AM

"It shows true genuine interest that people from the studios actually visit these boards and participate in these messages, chats, etc. about their film, TV, and DVD products."

Yes. It's amazing what a few minutes of time to answer a fairly simple question can do for the people that support your company. Posted Image My Grandmother told me about this type of thing happening in days past.....I think she called it something like 'customer service'. Posted Image

Thanks Martin!! Posted Image
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#152 of 155 andySu

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Posted April 30 2006 - 04:21 AM

If you would have seen in 70mm, 2.2:1, which is a blow-up from the Super 35 print, you wouldn’t really notice the difference, unless you saw it in a regular 35mm, scope 2.35:1.

It’s not the first time paramount pictures as botched this up, “Top Gun” the first DVD edition was totally framed in the wrong aspect ratio, and there’s a few other points that I can talk about hear, but I’ll leave that for a different topic.

Other titles that have been botched to DVD included.

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country
Spherical (Super-35) Blow-Up / Six-Track Dolby Stereo

Top Gun
Spherical (Super-35) Blow-Up / Six-Track Dolby Stereo
Paramount

Backdraft
Spherical (Super-35) Blow-Up / Six-Track Dolby Stereo
Universal

#153 of 155 Dave Scarpa

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Posted May 01 2006 - 01:48 AM

Star Trek VI is going to be ON HBO HD this month, it'll be interesting what Aspect ratio it will be, HBO has been leaving Older Films in OAR of late, I caught Crocodile Dundee in HD at it's OAR last month.
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#154 of 155 Cassy_w

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Posted May 02 2006 - 01:09 AM

It has been shown before and was 2:1. Looks exceptionally good, but yes, the left side is cropped a bit.
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#155 of 155 Porfirio

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Posted May 30 2006 - 07:26 AM

Does anyone have an e-mail address or phone number for Paramount Home Entertaiment's customer service? I just received a replacement order for this dvd and disc 1 is cracked.


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