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Def Tech Supercube Reference vs. SVS PB2+


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41 replies to this topic

#1 of 42 OFFLINE   Parker Bailey

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Posted December 29 2003 - 05:11 AM

I think these are both great subs, although the Def Tech is about $500 more. I still want to know how you all think the PB2+ stacks up against it. IMO I would take the SVS anyday.

#2 of 42 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted December 29 2003 - 06:08 AM

The Def Tech SCI and SCII faired pretty badly in Nousaine's standardized testing.

http://members.cox.n.....0Sub Data.htm

Def Tech SC I – 103dB / 25hz~78dB
Def Tech SC II – 96.9dB / 25hz~85dB

These are THD-limited SPLs in Nousaine's test room. They are not the absolute maximum SPL the subs can generate. See the website for details on how the "Ace Of Bass" conducts sub testing.

If the performance of the DT SC I and II is indicative of the entire product line, I think many enthusiasts will be suspicious of the DT SCR's ability to run with the big dogs until they see some hard numbers on distortion limited output, particularly in the 15-30 Hz region.

With a 14" long throw woofer and 2 PRs and tons of amp power, I have no doubt it can generate prodigious output levels. But how cleanly is another story entirely, and THD can only be measured with test gear, not by subjective listening tests. High THD actually sounds pleasing to certain individuals, who often characterize it as a very "full" sound.

My own THD test numbers on the PB2+ are not directly comparable to Nousaine's because of the differences in our test gear, room size, and methodology. As an aside, anyone who compares THD numbers generated by different testers using different test rigs under different conditions is playing an extrapolation guessing game at best. Sure, if both testers did ground plane at 2 meters (for example), the results "should" be similar, but could still easily vary a few percent either way just based on differences between the mics, software, and processing equipment.

With that said, I can tell you I've measured some very low THD numbers from the SVS PB2+ in-room @ 25 Hz @ 105 dB @ 10 feet from the sub. I could have easily pushed it higher since THD was still very low at that point, but everything in the house was rattling. :b

Under the same Nousaine testing, the old SVS 20-39 CS with the original (non-ISD) driver and 190 watt Fidek amp hit 106 dB at 25 Hz before THD hit 10%. A conservative estimate would be to add 15 dB to that number for the PB2+ which uses two far superior dB-12 Plus drivers and a 900 watt amp.

Since the dB scale is log10, the difference between say 80 dB and 120 dB (as a THD limited SPL) is HUGE. It would take MANY Supercube I or II stacked in one corner to even approach the clean low frequency output capabilities of a single PB2+.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
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SVS

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#3 of 42 OFFLINE   Ken Smith

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Posted December 29 2003 - 07:05 AM

ED,
You keep commenting on the SC I and II. The subject is the Reference which is the superior sub.

Parker,
Don't forget that the SVS needs it's own amp (extra cost) and the Def. Tech has an 1800 watt amp built in.

#4 of 42 OFFLINE   WayneO

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Posted December 29 2003 - 07:07 AM

Quote:
Don't forget that the SVS needs it's own amp (extra cost) and the Def. Tech has an 1800 watt amp built in.


PB2+ has a 900W amp.
If the best advice is "listen for yourself", then why offer your opinion?

#5 of 42 OFFLINE   Ken Smith

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Posted December 29 2003 - 08:52 AM

Wayne,
Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. I thought all SVS subs needed an outboard amp.
D.T. still has the larger amp though.

#6 of 42 OFFLINE   WayneO

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Posted December 29 2003 - 09:04 AM

The DT has a bigger amp, but a much smaller enclosure, so it has to work harder, doesn't mean it has an advantage just because of raw power...........
If the best advice is "listen for yourself", then why offer your opinion?

#7 of 42 OFFLINE   Jesse Sharrow

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Posted December 29 2003 - 09:07 AM

Do you guys think the deftech would be worth it if you could get 75% off retail? Honestly? Posted Image

#8 of 42 OFFLINE   WayneO

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Posted December 29 2003 - 09:10 AM

Hell yeah, then I'd sell it for almost retail and get an SVS........Posted Image
If the best advice is "listen for yourself", then why offer your opinion?

#9 of 42 OFFLINE   Edward J M

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Posted December 29 2003 - 09:13 AM

Quote:
You keep commenting on the SC I and II. The subject is the Reference which is the superior sub.

Hi Ken:

I realize that, but it's all we have to go on regarding THD data from the SC line-up. I do qualify the response by stating "if" the performance of the DT SCI/II is indicative of the entire SC line, then I think many will wait for hard numbers on the SC Reference before purchasing.

DT does state the SC Ref is equal to four Supercube I in terms of output and performance. If you wanted to try and extrapolate, you might add 9-12 dB to the SC I's performance and be in the ball park? That would get you to around 90-95 dB as a 10% THD limited output.

If a particular individual doesn't care about harmonic distortion per se (it doesn't sound that objectionable to certain people), then the high output from the DT SCR could be a good choice for him/her.
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."


#10 of 42 OFFLINE   Dave Shepard

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Posted December 29 2003 - 11:18 AM

I along with Ed have the PB2+ and I can tell you that I've listened to quite a few before I setteled on this one. It is really that good and clean. You really get more then you pay for with SVS. When it comes to exact numbers Ed has that know-how and test hardware to backup the claims. What I can tell you is when I auditioned the others like M&K, Velo, Klip etc. this will with out a doubt crush-em. With all the rave reviews and recomendations to get a SVS did you really expect this to be any differant Posted Image .

Dave

#11 of 42 OFFLINE   Robert Cowan

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Posted December 29 2003 - 11:57 AM

hehe, i got my deftech for 70% off retail ($510), and it is worth every penny Posted Image

do not (repeat, DO NOT) compare the deftech I or II to the reference). they are VERY different.

#12 of 42 OFFLINE   Eric Eash

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Posted December 29 2003 - 01:20 PM

i don't think very many subs in the same price range can compete with a direct-to-consumer company such as SVS, Acoustic-Visions, Adire, Stryke, HSU. When you factor in all the advertising, store mark up, it makes that $1500 subwoofer worth about what robert paid for it, which i think would be a good deal if it was new. not saying all retail products are marked up 200%, just saying that the companies that aren't retail aren't marked up at all. but i think with Axiom, who are an internet direct company, there is a slight mark up to compensate for so called free shipping. bottom line is i think you'd get more out of an SVS than the def tech. i wish TN would test all SVS subs as well as some common diy subs.

just my .02,

eric
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#13 of 42 OFFLINE   Mike Gl

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Posted December 31 2003 - 10:45 AM

Ken,

While I don't have the PB2+ sub, my home theater system includes dual SVS 20-39 CS+ driven by a Samson S1000 amplifier. I also have an Infinity HPS1000 sub in the same room, but it was not on when my Radio Shack meter measured a 115 dB peak. The other speakers in my 7.1 system are Definitive Technology.


Mike

#14 of 42 OFFLINE   Robert_Gaither

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Posted December 31 2003 - 05:03 PM

Quote:
i wish TN would test all SVS subs as well as some common diy subs.


The reason we will never see such a thing is that simply most manufacturer's know approximately what their product will do, they will see if the reviewer posted any numbers for a product of similar price or similar market segment, and it would be plain stupid from a marketing perspective (a SVS does x db at 20 hz for $599, and my product does x -15 db at $999 would mean bankrupcy if I let it get reviewed under the same testing condition by the same reviewer!).

#15 of 42 OFFLINE   David*RT

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Posted May 17 2004 - 05:35 AM

It has already been reported in "DVD Etc" magazine that the Supercube Reference received a 99/100 rating.

Following on the heels of that report, "Perfect Vision" magazine just did a review on the Deftech Supercube Reference sub (May/June 2004), calling it one of the "fastest cleanest, most forceful low bass they've ever heard."

They did a CHART comparing several reference subs in many categories. Looks like the Supercube Reference is the real deal:

MFGR & Model/Bass Extension/Tonality/Features & Connectivity/Build Quality/Value


Deftech Supercube Reference($1699)......5/5/5/4/5
Audio Physic Minos($6995)................5/5/5/5/4
REL Stadium 3($2995)....................5/5/2/5/4
Martin Logan Depth($1795)...............4/5/5/5/5
MartinLogan Descent($2795).............4/5/5/5/4
PSB Subsonic 10($2499)...................4/5/4/5/4
Revel B15($2995)............................4/5/5/4/4
Velodyne HGS-12X($1699)................4/5/3/4/3
Aerial Acoustics SW12($4500)...........4/4/5/5/2
James EMB1000($1500)....................4/4/4/4/5
Deftech Supercube 1($1199).............4/4/5/4/4
B&W ASW-750($1600)......................4/3/4/4/3

The list in the magazine is more extensive than this with more ratings of cheaper, lesser perfoming subs. But the ones of note in the chart are listed above.

Quotes from the page-long review of the Supercube Reference:
Quote:
"...is an audiophile subwoofer that combines the cat-quick reflexes of Jet Li with the man-mountain clout of Warren Sapp.....This subwoofer is capable of incredible low-frequency extension (reaching below 20hz with authority) and very high output (playing nearly as loudly as four Deftech Supercube I's). Obviously this sub offered large quantities of low bass on demand, but what surprised me was the amazing quality of the bass it produced....The result was a subwoofer that speaks forcefully and clearly, yet is capable of remarkable delicacy and grace.......proved equally convincing on music, striking a great balance between power and control, and offering so much headroom that it never seemed to be working hard........There aren't many subwoofers that can outperform the Supercube Referencem and few I've heard cost a lot more. I recommend this subwoofer highly, subject only to the suggestion that you use crossover frequency settings below 100Hz (so as to not force the 14" woofer and passive radiators to go higher than they should)."




.......It seems that someone should do a shoot-out between a top-line SVS sub and this Deftech unit. It seems to be a very compelling unit with the raves it's getting in the press....

#16 of 42 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 17 2004 - 06:45 AM

David, I have that issue ... and the guy who wrote it really needs to learn a bit about speaker design. He states the 100 Hz crossover will keep the driver AND passive radiators from working higher than they should.

IF the passive radiators are working higher than 35 Hz at any time, you have a serious design problem.

I would be hesitant in deciding that ANYONE making a statement like that (that a 100 Hz crossover will keep the PR's from working too high) is a reviewer whose words would get me to spend $1699.
Craig Chase

#17 of 42 OFFLINE   George_W_K

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Posted May 17 2004 - 10:08 AM

I'd be interested in a comparison of these two subs. I'd really be interested in the dBs that the Def Tech puts out below 20 Hz. Just for curiosity's sake.

#18 of 42 OFFLINE   RussD

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Posted May 17 2004 - 01:49 PM

craig, chris martens and neil gader are both well respected reviewers, as are their editors robert harley and jonathan valin. as the article states, they live with these products for weeks to obtain a true performance rating. the subs in this article are for the most part held in high regard in the audiophile community. i believe the numbers speak for themselves.
uncle r

#19 of 42 OFFLINE   Craig Chase

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Posted May 17 2004 - 02:16 PM

Russ... A couple of questions...

1. What numbers ?
2. What is the function of a passive radiator? (I have auditioned the SC REF, by the way)
Craig Chase

#20 of 42 OFFLINE   RussD

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Posted May 17 2004 - 02:54 PM

the "numbers" are listed in the comparison chart in the perfect vision article and reprinted by david in his post. while an avid enthusiast, far be it from me to profess any expertise in speaker design. my understanding being limited to a passive radiator being a design choice, sealed or vented enclosure.
uncle r


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