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Reason why Star Wars delayed til 2006? Purists won't like it!


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#1 of 38 OFFLINE   andrew markworthy

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Posted September 10 2001 - 10:22 PM

I don't think this argument's been raised before, but apologies in advance if it has. [Warning - there are some spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn't seen episodes 4-6]

We are in a mindset to a greater or lesser extent of thinking of Episodes 1-3 as a prequel to the 'proper' Star Wars (i.e. episodes 4-6). But future generations will see Star Wars as beginning, logically enough, with Episode 1. Now if that's so, there's quite a bit of Episodes 4-6 which will not have the dramatic impact it did for those who saw these episodes first. Things like the issues of Luke's and Leia's parentage, the past of Darth Vader and Obi-Wan, etc, etc. Indeed, the dramatic high spot of TESB, when Luke discovers who his dad really is, is likely to lose all its suprise. So, perhaps in order to re-inject some drama, Lucas wants to re-edit Episodes 4-6 to include e.g. flashbacks, etc. This would give the movies greater continuity with episodes 1-3. Purists won't like this, but in the context of the entire series of movies it makes some sense. This would explain why Lucas is delaying far more than the 'we want to put together a really good package of extras' explanation, which has always rung hollow. Fans would buy these things bare bones, with snapper cases at 50 dollars apiece.

Personally, I concur with practically everyone else here in wanting a vanilla edition now (though no snapper cases or 50 dollars price tag!) and a fancy one in 2006. Heck, I'm not even a great fan of the movies (and why some guys have it as practically a religion is beyond me), but I'm feeling a definite gap in my DVD collection.

#2 of 38 OFFLINE   Dan Brecher

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Posted September 10 2001 - 10:53 PM

Without yet knowing how Lucas has taken to revealing aspects of the story in Episode 2 and 3, it's still rather hard to tell that they may ultimately take away some of the surprise seen in the later films, most notably Empire Strikes Back.

There are ways of telling the stories and fates of characters in the latter two prequels without spoiling elements of the final 3 installments of the series, and I think Lucas will be judged on his merits of being a writer and director most in how he handles these aspects come time of their release (Epsiode 3's especially).

What's funny now though, is that we now WANT Lucas to release multiple versions of the movies. We've ranted and ranted over the fact he's milked the VHS markets so much with re-issue upon re-issue, and now we're a bit miffed he's not doing the same stunt on DVD.

I wont deny I'd love anamorphic releases of eps 4, 5 & 6 and would be happy to have them now with no more supplements then the SE LD box set had (trailers and a 30 min documentary). I've VERY lucky to own the two LD box set incarnations of the movie, so the wait for more Star Wars on DVD is not as infuriating to me as it is to others.

The Q&A from the recent expo at the Ranch for the DVD is worth reading because it really shows the time, care and attention put into their want to do TPM on DVD right. It's a very revealing session regarding Lucas and his companies view on doing these things.

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#3 of 38 OFFLINE   Paul_D

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Posted September 10 2001 - 11:39 PM

Don't get me wrong. I'm as much a fan of the Star Wars saga as the next film buff. They're a part of my childhood that I look back at with fondness - huddling round the tv set at Christmas to see another installment for the 100th time.

But all this anger and relentless whining about re-releasing the original trilogy has me kind of mystified. Why does it mean THAT much to some people to own a set of films that they already own in countless other formats. It just strikes me as a major wate of time and energy, for slightly improved image resolution. As has been stated above, one the one hand Lucas's policy of re-releasing over and over provokes criticism and anger, and yet at the same time complainers, move onto another thread and protest that the latest re-release hasn't come out yet. My God, Lucas is probably just forming his release policy after reading these threads and chuckling all the way to the bank.

The comment about Star Wars as a religion is difficult to grasp, but nevertheless certainly true. But if a new format for reading books came out other than the printed page, would all the Christians of the world campaign until their throats are soar and keyboards worn out to have the Bible rendered in this new format, just as the Star Wars fanatics have done.

Obviously the other posters in this thread do not fall into this gruop, but IMO, those that are really need to put it into some perspective. I mean IMO the first and third films arent even THAT good. And the SE material does NOT sit well with the original material at all.

One additional comment, that doesn't really relate to my main point: The one shot in the original trilogy that coul have benefitted from being re-done was at the end of Episode 4, when one the Allied ships crashes into the death-star, it looks unbelievably crappy and just like a garage special effect. Just felt like mentioning that.

Just me two-cents. I've had my rant now... ahhhh. that felt good!!!!!
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#4 of 38 OFFLINE   TheoGB

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Posted September 10 2001 - 11:57 PM

Come on Paul. Surely that crash into the Death Star is fine compared to the awful matte lines around the Rancor by the time we get to Jedi? Posted Image They didn't even seem to have TRIED to get rid of them. I'm sure they could have made some good changes there.

We can hope that when the movies appear in SE form on DVD there will have been additional mastering to make the new stuff sit better with the old.

Ho hum.

Theo

#5 of 38 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:12 AM

quote,
"It just strikes me as a major wate of time and energy, for slightly improved image resolution."

Paul, your not seriously reffering to dvd are you!?!

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#6 of 38 OFFLINE   Adam_S

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:13 AM

Star wars can't work as a twelve hour movie, and lucas is just once again showing he never really understood why SW worked in the first place (anyone else notice the two really good films he's directed were both edited by his wife).

there are many reasons why phantom menace won't work as the first part of the saga, and that is that IT NEVER INTRODUCES YOU INTO THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE!

think on this, within thirty minutes of A New Hope we're told what the force is, what the jedi are, what a lightsaber is, and about a war going on (which we've already been manipulated to root for one side); because not only have they been clearly established as the underdogs, but the other side is full dead shots in white armor and o a really nasty commander, all in black, who kills casually, crushing one man's throat with his bare hand.

now in TPM when was the force explained? oh that's righ it wasn't.

when were what the jedi are explained? oh once agian not explained.

when was a lightsaber explained? once agian they weren't in fact the only time lightsabers are referred to, is erroneously as a lasersword.

in fact the only things explained, are those new to the SW canon, like midicholorians.

sounds good to me, don't explain three basic tenets of a universe until into the 7th to 8th hour of the saga, right... that's a great idea.
Posted Image

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[Edited last by Adam_S on September 11, 2001 at 05:55 PM]
 

#7 of 38 OFFLINE   Paul_D

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:31 AM

In response to the Estella Warren admirer, It's my view that shaking your fist with rage at the creators of a few films because they don't want to release their movies on DVD when you've got the Dolby Digital, non-anamorphic laserdiscs sitting at home that deliver excellent image and sound quality, is lunacy.... SHEER lunacy!
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#8 of 38 OFFLINE   Joseph Bolus

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:38 AM

I, personally, am bitterly disappointed that I won't have an opportunity to view the OT on DVD until 2006.

I have never owned a LD player and, as a result, the best version of the OT that I own is the VHS Widescreen release of the '97 SE's.

As we all know, a 2.35:1 transfer rendered via VHS "Letterboxing" results in only around 160 lines or so of actual vertical resolution.

It boggles the mind that, for those of us without LD players, we will be forced into feeding our 16:9 HDTV monitors with this transfer of the OT well into the second half of the first decade of the 21st Century! (Not to mention the fact that I’m ready to retire my analog VHS HI-FI deck NOW! The only reason this component is still part of my HT is due to Star Wars and Indy …)

For the first time in my life I am seriously considering purchasing a LD player ...


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#9 of 38 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:45 AM

But you see Paul, that's just it, I DON'T have the LD's sitting at home, so sure i'm going to shake my fist with rage. Do you think what you've stated is of any consolation to the millions of dvd player owners out their without LD players?

And yes, a good anamorphic dvd transfer absolutly buries an LD transfer any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

quote,
"to the Estella Warren admirer"

Oh yeh, I admirer her all right! Posted Image

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#10 of 38 OFFLINE   Anders Englund

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Posted September 11 2001 - 01:51 AM

Quote:
now in TPM when was the force explained? oh that's righ ti wasn't
when were what hte jedi are explained? oh once cagian not explained.
Actually, I think we learned too much about The Force IN EP1. Why does everything have to explained so much?

Quote:
when was a lightsbare explained? once agian they weren't in fac the only time it's referred to, it is erroneously as a lightsaber.
Could you clarify this. I don't quite see what you're getting at.

--Anders

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#11 of 38 OFFLINE   alan halvorson

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Posted September 11 2001 - 02:17 AM

Quote:
And yes, a good anamorphic dvd transfer absolutly buries an LD transfer any day of the week and twice on Sunday!

Not a downconverted one, which is what most still live with. Maybe it's better - maybe - but maybe not.

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#12 of 38 OFFLINE   Kimmo Jaskari

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Posted September 11 2001 - 06:40 AM

Oh, I agree. Or rather, we learned all the wrong things about The Force in EP1. Midichlorians??

The Force was much better when it was a mystical force created by all living things. Nobody really knew how it worked but it was perilously close to magic for the uninitiated. Perfect.

Then of course along comes EP1 and totally fouls things up, in my opinion.

This was the same mistake they made in the Highlander series movies. They couldn't just stick with the intriguing mystery of the first movie, but had to invent some sort of explanation that, of course, made no sense whatsoever and turned the follow-up movies into accidental comedies. Highlander Endgame at least was true to the spirit of the first movie, so they eventually learned their lesson. Perhaps by episode 7 or 8 Mr Lucas will get it too... not holding my breath tho. Posted Image

I don't think its really possible to make the movie series work as a nine-parter either. Not credibly. If it had started with Ep IV, then sure. From EP1...? Hmm.

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#13 of 38 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted September 11 2001 - 07:26 AM

Quote:
Lucas wants to re-edit Episodes 4-6 to include e.g. flashbacks, etc.

Did he tell you this personally? Where are you getting this "information" from?
 

 


#14 of 38 OFFLINE   Loring

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Posted September 11 2001 - 07:47 AM

Ok what we all are forgetting here is (story wise) histories where lost due to the wars and also Empire's rise to power. Teachers of the Jedi and Historians where hunted and killed.

Also another point is there is a gap in time (may not be until all three movies are done and over with) between the first trilogy and the new trilogy that we are now seeing.

The new trilogy is working on the fact that we have already know about the Starwars Universe as it was set up for us in the Original Trilogy. But was only hinted to was the Clone Wars. The rise of the Empire. The story of the parents of Luke and Leia. We only know that their father fell to the Darkside and became Darth Vader and he was an accomplished pilot before the fall. These things are now being revealed to us in the new trilogy. Also we get to see a bit of the history of what brought all of are favorite characters together or to the point in their lives that we first saw them at.

I am glad to at least have new Starwars movies. I just wish everyone would take it for what it is a fictional work and remember its just entertainment.

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#15 of 38 OFFLINE   Adam_S

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Posted September 11 2001 - 10:46 AM

sorry for the massive amounts of typos in my last, post, I typed that in about three minutes as I was in a rush to get to class on time (turned out to be not so important today Posted Image )

what I was speaking about on the lightsabers was:
never once are we told in TPM what a lightsaber is, or even that is indeed called a lightsaber. Compare the first reference to a lightsaber in ANH to the first reference to a lightsaber in TPM)

Quote:
Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it. He was afraid you'd follow Obi-Wan off on some damned-fool idealistic crusade.

(hands lightsaber to luke, who turns it on)

Your father's lightsaber, the weapon of a jedi. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

now the comparable quote in TPM
Quote:
I knew you were a jedi, I saw your lasersword

now in A new hope we're given a tremendous amount of information about the star wars universe , all in the space of a few minutes; it's done masterfully with deft, swift, sure strokes of the pen and camera.
The Phantom menace never once plants information in such a way. I reiterate, how is the force explained explained in TPM compared to ANH?

ANH
Quote:
The force?

The force is what gives the jedi his power, it's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together

now there's not really a comparable explanation in TPM, we're told Anakin has fast reflexes, see things before they've happened, and most people would logically infer this has something to do with this force these guys with laserswords are jabbering on about.

here's what we are told about the force in TPM (i've only seen it a few times, so my memory is spotty)
TPM
Quote:
Qui-Gon sir, I was wondering, I heard everyone talkign about midichlorians, and i was wondering sir, what are mid chlorians.

Well, Ani, midchlorians are symbiots between all living creatures and the force, they are the force and give us our ability to use the force.

and again jedi aren't ever explained in TPM, they are often referred to by the bumbling-somewhat-bad aliens as rather dangerous and mysterious, but that's all we ever really learn about them. Everyone in the galaxy knows about the jedi, their reputation as warriors at least, without really knowing what it is they do, so it's never explained in phantom menace who/what jedi are and what their role is. True if you already know what the jedi are, we're given a wonderful amount of information on them, how they functioned as individuals, teams, and as a beaurocracy, but since we're looking at this from the perspective of the first part of a series, by someone who has never seen them(the way george wants future generations to see them), none of that matters, because the jedi, their position and importance are never clearly explained in TPM; however it was done rather brilliantly in one memorable line in ANH

once agian from those magical five minutes of masterful universe building in ANH...
Quote:
For over a thousand generations, the jedi knights were the guardians of truth and justice, before the dark times, before the empire.

now if you want to go beyond those three basic tenets (jedi, the force, and lightsabers) you can.

for instance look at the basic tone and introduction of the villians.
In The Phantom Menace. the jedi arrive on a ship with soem silly looking and sounding aliens. A cheap cowardly trick is played by trying to poison them. this doesn't affect them, and they cut through some of the laughable looking (think plastic toys), robots-with-guns (though we dont'know they're droids, never been called that yet, remember). I say laughable looking, because by 2006 to anybody seeing them they will look like something from the infant period of cgi effects, clearly discernable by the omnipresent plasticty sheen. At one point one of the humans magically crumples some of the robots by waving his hand at them. These guys the silly aliens call jedi then try to get to the aliens, who hide behind a bunch of thick doors, doing nothign else to actively defend themselves, but do call some more, bigger robots to sneak up behind the jedi. The jedi then run away really fast.
So what has this sequence told us? that there are these fairly cool heros called jedi with a really cool neat lasersword weapon that's pretty useless if your foe has a shield. they can do magic, though don't very often, for some unexplained reason, and they run away when they don't win quickly. We've been shown some laughable villians, that don't inspire any source of fear or dread (though we're soon shown they're not the real menace) who are cowards, and can't fight.

compare to the introduction of ANH
first a laser fight between two big ships. the really big one wins and captures the other one. Next is a firefight between humans and heavily armored somethings. we get introduced to two humorous robots who are trying to get out of the way. the humans lose the firefight, many being killed on screen, and the apparent commander of the white armored bad guys comes out, dressed all in black, and generally being very menacing. This guys first action is to crush the throat of some guy he's interrogating with his hand, and generally acts pretty evil. we're shown the robots again escaping from the fight. Also a pretty girl is introduced, and the black armored guy makes himmself even more evil by being really mean to a little slip of a girl that's two feet smaller than he is.

which is the better introduction? well ANH imo does a better job of delineating good and bad guys.

I'll stop with the comparisons for now.

The reason Phantom Menace doesn't work as a introduction to the star wars universe is that it opperates from the assumption you've already seen the other three films. It is unmistakeable that the phantom menace makes loads of sense for anyone who has actually seen the OT, but so much is unexplained that it fails to stand up on it's own merits. If Lucas is reediting the old films so that they won't stand on their own as a separate trilogy, but depend on seeing the prequel trilogy first (which seems to be what he is doing), then not only is he destroying some of the best storytelling of the past century, but an important bit of film history as well.

Star Wars tapped into the collective subconscious of an entire generation, and by significantly altering a peice of history that changed the world, and by refusing to allow the reproduction of the originals Lucas is not only making a bad decision, but one that cheats both future generations, future casual film buffs, and future historians from a better understanding of one of great cultural icons of the past half century.
 

#16 of 38 OFFLINE   Tom Ryan

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Posted September 11 2001 - 11:47 AM

Adam.....what you're talking about could actually be a good thing. The origins of the Jedi and the things that characterize them could remain unexplained for a few episodes, preserving their mystery. You would accept them either way if seeing the Saga through for the first time from 1-6, but as everything is explained along the way, you would find the questions you ask yourself being answered one by one.

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#17 of 38 OFFLINE   Greg_Y

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:28 PM

Quote:
The origins of the Jedi and the things that characterize them could remain unexplained for a few episodes, preserving their mystery.

But the manner in which they're explained in Episode IV is not like this. All these things that Adam went over are introduced in a very, well, introductory way....the mystery would be exploded.

Maybe Lucas could find a way for that type of introduction to make sense going from Episode III to Episode IV, but I doubt it. It seems a bit gimmicky now, and it will probably seem gimmicky within the context of all 6 films.

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#18 of 38 OFFLINE   Gary Rhine

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:29 PM

I am not a big Star Wars fan but it makes sense to me to release the DVD's in order. What I don't understand is why the movies were not made in order. Was there a good reason?

Also, God Bless America.

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#19 of 38 OFFLINE   Jeff Ulmer

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:42 PM

I will not be happy with the release of Star Wars on DVD until the original theatrical versions are available. Fortunately, I do have the laserdiscs, but I would prefer to see this groundbreaking and cinematically importat work preserved as originally released.

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#20 of 38 OFFLINE   Brian Lawrence

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Posted September 11 2001 - 12:46 PM

Quote:
Reason why Star Wars delayed til 2006? Purists won't like it!

To set the record straight, The original STAR WARS films have NOT been delayed!!!! Lucas never said they would be coming out before 2006, thus they are still on schedule. I agree though that it sucks having to wait another 5 years.


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