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H/K Bass management questions


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#1 of 20 KyleGS

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Posted October 25 2003 - 05:39 AM

I recently acquired the AVR 510. I'm somewhat confused on the bass management of this unit. The manual isn't as clear as I would like it.

You have the option of running the mains as lg or small (obviously). From here it lets you choose subwoofer x-over freq. based on the lg/small setting for the mains.

If mains set to small ---> you can x-over @ 80 or 100hz
If mains set to lg ---> you can x-over @ 40 or 60hz

NOW--> my mains will go cleanly down to ~35 hz. I'd like to x-over them at 60hz. BTW- I've got an external amp for the mains.

IF I set the mains to large and use the 60hz x-over for the sub will this also high pass the mains @ 60hz?

I'm really asking- does the unit x-over the sub (low pass) and mains (high pass) at the same freq?

OR

Does large=fullrange and small=high pass @ 100hz?

I hope my question isn't confusing...Posted Image

#2 of 20 KyleGS

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Posted October 26 2003 - 03:01 PM

anyone?

#3 of 20 Kelana

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Posted October 26 2003 - 06:44 PM

Hmm..maybe your question are confusing Posted Image Posted Image

#4 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 26 2003 - 08:56 PM

"IF I set the mains to large and use the 60hz x-over for the sub will this also high pass the mains @ 60hz?

I'm really asking- does the unit x-over the sub (low pass) and mains (high pass) at the same freq?"

Are you asking if the mains will still output the frequencies at 60hz and lower (down to their 35hz capability)?

If so, the answer is yes if you choose Large for your "Left/Right", and "Sub LFE+L/R". The low frequencies will be output by both the mains and Sub according to their respective abilities. Setting the sub x-over to 60hz will cause it to produce all the bass information from 60hz down, and the mains will produce all the frequencies of which they are capable.

If you choose Large for your "Left/Right", and "Sub(LFE)", your mains will produce all the bass of which they are capable, but the Sub will only produce the Low Frequency Effects soundtrack available from a digital source.

All of this information is available in your 510 manual on pages 22 and 23. If you don't have a manual, I suggest you go to harmankardon.com and highlight Product Support, then click Owners Manuals, then click the down arrow on the box and highlight Heritage Models, click the down arrow on Choose a Heritage Model, and click on AVR 510, wait for it to load, then print it out.
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#5 of 20 KyleGS

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Posted October 27 2003 - 05:05 AM

I understand. But when lg. is selected for the mains, sub x-over is at 60hz I know this will low-pass the sub @ 60hz but will it also HIGH-PASS the mains @ 60hz or will they run FULLRANGE.

#6 of 20 Baldemar Garcia

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Posted October 27 2003 - 06:04 AM

Large speakers run full-range. If you want to make sure, look for a post by me detailing the results of my bass management test for the AVR320. Look back to last December, hopefully it's still around.
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#7 of 20 JohnSer

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Posted October 27 2003 - 06:06 AM

When set to Large, the mains are NOT high passed. They receive the full range signal. I think it is the same in my 520, but never used a test disk to varify.

JohnS

#8 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 29 2003 - 12:47 AM

"I understand. But when lg. is selected for the mains, sub x-over is at 60hz I know this will low-pass the sub @ 60hz but will it also HIGH-PASS the mains @ 60hz or will they run FULLRANGE."

Obviously you didn't understand, or I didn't.

"...I know this will low-pass the sub @ 60hz but will it also HIGH-PASS the mains @ 60hz or will they run FULLRANGE."

The answer depends on your Subwoofer setting, NOT your x-over setting. If you set your subwoofer to "SUB", and your x-over to 60hz all of the frequencies below 60hz will be sent to the sub. All of the frequencies above 60hz will be passed on to the mains. They will NOT run FULLRANGE

"...if you choose Large for your "Left/Right", and "Sub LFE+L/R". The low frequencies will be output by both the mains and Sub according to their respective abilities. Setting the sub x-over to 60hz will cause it to produce all the bass information from 60hz down, and the mains will produce all the frequencies of which they are capable." The mains WILL run FULLRANGE.
If you choose Large for your "Left/Right", and "Sub(LFE)", your mains will produce all the bass of which they are capable." The mains WILL STILL run FULLRANGE, but the SUB WILL ONLY PRODUCE the LFE (the Low Frequency Effects soundtrack) and ONLY IF it is available, and ONLY from a digital source.

I believe this should answer the question. What I find confusing is your use of "high-pass". Perhaps that is a technically correct term, but it is one with which I'm not familiar.
I believe I've figured out what the intention of your question is, and answered it. If not, try again but further clarify (or avoid altogether) the word High-pass.
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#9 of 20 JohnSer

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Posted October 29 2003 - 03:14 AM

Quote:
The answer depends on your Subwoofer setting, NOT your x-over setting. If you set your subwoofer to "SUB", and your x-over to 60hz all of the frequencies below 60hz will be sent to the sub. All of the frequencies above 60hz will be passed on to the mains. They will NOT run FULLRANGE


Doug, from my interpretation of reading the 520 manual, I don't think this is correct. I didn't go check the 510 manual, but pretty sure it is the same. This came as a surprise to me, when I first read it, because you would think that it would be the same freq. The manual specificly talks about matching the 40 or 60 hz crossover to the capabilities of your speakers. It doesn't say that it limits freq below that, to the mains.

Even when you set them to small, the manual doesn't say at which frequency it high-passes the mains. It kinda implys it is 100hz. The 80 or 100 hz cross-over setting is discussed in the same way, matching to the natural capabilities of the speaker.

I think I remember someone doing an extensive test, and posting the results here, some time ago. But, couldn't find the one I wanted in a search.

If time permits, I can do a quick test tonight. I will feed a 40Hz tone, and with all the same settings, just change the crossover setting from none, to 40, to 60, and take spl readings. Sub will be powered off. If my interpretation is correct, all reading should be close to the same.

PS: Highpass means that frequencies above a given frequency will be sent/passed to the channel. Low pass means, frequencies below a given frequency will be sent/passed.

JohnS

#10 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 29 2003 - 07:08 AM

"If time permits, I can do a quick test tonight. I will feed a 40Hz tone, and with all the same settings, just change the crossover setting from none, to 40, to 60, and take spl readings. Sub will be powered off. If my interpretation is correct, all reading should be close to the same."

Would be great if you could. What I understand in the manual (and the manual is not very clear) would indicate that, when in the sub mode, the low frequencies are sent to the sub and not to the mains.

"Even when you set them to small, the manual doesn't say at which frequency it high-passes the mains."

Agreed, but what, then, would be the difference between "Sub LFE+L/R" and "Sub". LFE is clearly defined. It would seem to imply that the "Sub" would only highpass (and thanks for the definition. It means what I thought it did) those frequencies above the cross-over while Sub LFE+L/R would send all information to L/R and the information below the cross-over to the subwoofer. Maybe it means the subwoofer will get LFE soundtrack information, sub crossover information, and the L/R channels will get all information (except LFE)????
Your testing should solve the puzzle. I'm very curious now.

In any case, we agree that if mains are set to Large, then they will receive even the information below the crossover setting and that was (as best I could understand it) KyleGS's original question.

By the way, I also have a 520. I recently upgraded to a 525 but am taking it back. It's my second one. The first was damaged in shipping and this one has a distortion in the center channel that is nerve-wracking. It processes surround materials with much better definition and clarity than the 520, but that center channel!! I hate distortion and it is harsh, blaring, and annoying. I thought I had it fixed by altering the delay settings, but it out-foxed me. Seems it's more determined than I can overcome.

One final thought, what the heck happens to the sub-crossover information for the surrounds? Just sent to them?
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#11 of 20 Baldemar Garcia

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Posted October 29 2003 - 07:17 AM

Large run full range. When sub is on, it gets bass from all small speakers, large fronts get only l/r bass (no matter what 'sub' option is used). lfe +l/r means the sub gets the lfe plus lowpass bass from large l/r fronts, as well as all lowpass bass from small speakers. crossover point is global, so if you have large fronts, crossover point for all small speakers will be either 40 or 60Hz. Large fronts get no bass from small speakers unless sub is none. Test results from avr320.
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#12 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 29 2003 - 09:49 AM

Baldemar Garcia

Wow!!Posted Image

Baldemar Garcia

I re-edited this post. Sleep deprivation leaves ugly scars in the brain.
After sleeping and re-reading my post, forget everything I asked.:b
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#13 of 20 KyleGS

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Posted October 29 2003 - 12:57 PM

I believe I'll write H/K with my question although I'm now 95% sure about the answer. When I think about it- it really isn't a confusing question... When the mains are selected as LARGE- does their high-pass x-over point follow that of the sub's x-over point. Simply stated. Paul- Perhaps if you didn't understand what high-pass means you shouldn't have attempted an answer. It's just the opposite of low-pass.

BTW I do have a manual and I have read it extensively. The manual states "When LARGE is selected, a full-range output will be sent to the front left and front right outputs."

I don't think they are x-over'ed at any point when selected as LARGE.

#14 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 29 2003 - 10:59 PM

Kyle
(It's Doug, by the way, not Paul)
Re: the reason I attempted to answer your question without understanding the highpass lowpass verbiage is because I thought I understood what it meant by the way you phrased it and because noone was responding. I was only asking for clarification on that word because I had not seen it previously but suspected it was the correct term. I thought that term might be what kept some from responding. As I re-read my post I could see that it might be in some way offensive to you and I certainly didn't mean it to be.

As you had read the manual and

"The manual states "When LARGE is selected, a full-range output will be sent to the front left and front right outputs.""

I am not sure why you'd be asking the question

"Does large=fullrange and small=high pass @ 100hz?"

except for the fact that the manual is written in an extremely confusing style of grammar. It seems that both Denon and HK manuals are written like this and tend to make you over-think and over-interpret.
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#15 of 20 JohnSer

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Posted October 30 2003 - 03:31 AM

I was not able to find my Basszone Test CD Posted Image Found the jewel case, though! While it would have been a much better test using a 30Hz warble tone, I decided to test with a music CD that had some heavy bass in the beginning.

Playing the CD, which is running through an optical connection, mains set to large, with volume set to the -30 setting, powered sub not switched on, with RS Db meter about 10' away, tested sub L/R+LFE 60Hz, sub L/R+LFE 40Hz, and NO SUB. Played the first 10 secs of track, three times and tryed to get the best average reading I could. I also listened to see if I could hear a sonic difference. As best that I can tell, there was no difference in all three settings. This would seem to indicate that the mains are NOT high passed, and DO get the full range signal. Again, would much rather have done with a test CD.

Hope this helps the lesson the confusion.

JohnS

#16 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 31 2003 - 05:16 AM

JohnS

Between your test and Baldemar's the answer seems the same, at least regarding the mains.
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#17 of 20 JohnSer

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Posted October 31 2003 - 05:39 AM

Doug, personaly, I wish it didn't work that way. I would much rather have it do a high-pass at the cross-over frequency. The 525 did change something with respect to the sub-crossover, but don't know if it now does a high-pass.

JohnS

#18 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted October 31 2003 - 08:25 AM

JohnS,

Just tore down my 525 and hooked up my 520 and discovered that in the Stereo mode, the center channel is active...and can't be adjusted. That really sucks. It's almost enough to make me want to keep the 525.

Hopefully it isn't just my 520 with this "Stereo 3" mode and it's that way for all 520's. I just never noticed it before.
Is yours that way?.......

After further review, it IS my 520. The manual indicates that there is a stereo 3 mode and a stereo mode. When I use the Dolby button to go to stereo 3, the center channel is muted (well, there's sound like a dead channel coming out, but no music). If I put it in surround off mode, then the center channel is active, but it doesn't show up in the OSD; just L and R.

Consequently, I'll be keeping the 525. I read somewhere that the center channel distortion is according to the mix of the media and not the fault of the amp. It still is annoying. Fortunately, I bought both at COSTCO so, if I'm not satisfied for any reason I can get a full refund. I'm not satisfied with the 520...Maybe they'll carry the 630 one day and I can return the 525.

Doug
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#19 of 20 JohnSer

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Posted October 31 2003 - 11:44 AM

Doug,

I have never used stereo 3 mode, but will give it a try. I can tell you that in stereo mode, my center channel is NOT active. I would try a processor reset on that 520. I do know of a problem with the 520, using logic 7, and 7 channels. There was a couple of threads here, on that.

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#20 of 20 Doug Brewster

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Posted November 01 2003 - 11:31 PM

"I would try a processor reset on that 520."

Had done that and no luck. As I said, I'm glad I bought it at COSTCO. It'll be Wed or Thurs before I can get it out of the system and into the store.
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