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If J6P were to embrace widescreen...


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27 replies to this topic

#1 of 28 OFFLINE   Kenny Goldin

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Posted August 18 2001 - 10:04 PM

Just a hypothetical here, and I don't mean to come accross as a jerk becasue I support all the discussions that have been going on here regarding J6P and OAR, but I have been wondering about something.

If he/she were to suddenly emrace widescreen and abhor P&S, would we see lots of posts here angrily stating that J6P does not have his TV properly calibrated? Would there be cries for them to go buy Video Essentials or Avia? After all, most of them have probably been watching TV with the sharpness, brightness, and contrast all turned up way too high. Now, sure they are getting OAR, but the picture is still not "right." In fact, having the sharpness turned way up high, as you know, actually adds information to the picture.

I know that this is a bogus question, but one I have been itching to ask for quite some time. I was shocked that some of you, in a previous thread, said you did not have problems with a video store editing tapes for content. I know TV stations have been doing this for years, and I can understand the point, but is that not degrading what the director intended as much as panning ans scanning a film? For me, I would rather watch a P&S version of an unedited film over an OAR version of an edited film. I am kind of off to a tangent here, so back to my question. Why is there not more outcry over this issue? Movies look horrible with the sharpness, brightness, and contrast too high, the way I used to watch. I could never watch a movie like that, and I would get anyone I was watching to turn these settings down.
I have converted quite a few over to OAR, but no matter how hard I try, they HATE watching the "too dark" screen. Thoughts?

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[Edited last by Kenny Goldin on August 19, 2001 at 05:06 AM]
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#2 of 28 OFFLINE   Carl Johnson

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Posted August 18 2001 - 11:27 PM

Why would I care how someone else calibrates their television? Whether they crank the bright and sharpness settings, use VE, or stick with the default makes no difference to me. The same lack of concern regulates my thoughts on widescreen vs P&S, Toyota vs Yugo, VHS vs DVD and NBA vs WNBA. What you choose to spend your money on is your business, but im gonna make my preference known too.

#3 of 28 OFFLINE   MikeM

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Posted August 19 2001 - 12:08 AM

Quote:
I would rather watch a P&S version of an unedited film over an OAR version of an edited film

Trick question, because they're both edited.

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#4 of 28 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted August 19 2001 - 12:52 AM

It's difficult, but yes, I think I too would prefer the P&S of the whole film above the OAR of the edited version.

Note however that this "trick" question doesn't say a thing about my acceptance of P&S ("Would you rather have your children killed, or your husband?")

Here's another tricky one (and certainly related to the Willy Wonka problem): Would I find an open-matted version of a movie acceptable if I couldn't get an OAR?

The answer is yes - I'll explain.

Getting the open-matte version would mean getting the whole film. It would be the same as getting a film copy of the original. I can easily apply the matte myself (it's some work, but I can do it with mechanical means).

It would however also mean a diminishing of the vertical resolution (the OAR enhanced-for-widescreen is better than the 4x3 of an open matted image). So my main reserve would be that it was like an un-enhanced version. I would therefore still certainly prefer the OAR version, but then it would also have to be enhanced to make a real difference(or else it's nothing but the open-matted version with the mattes applied).

This may sound to some as heresy, but it really isn't. And it's the main reason I stayed out of the Warner/Willy Wonka discussion.

Cees


#5 of 28 OFFLINE   Mark Kalzer

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Posted August 19 2001 - 01:17 AM

I doubt we'd see much complaining about how J6P has their TVs calibrated. It's not like it's actually affecting us with our VE calibrated systems in anyway. The reason we get so angry over J6P's lack of Widescreen acceptance, is that in some recent cases, it is truly preventing us from enjoying movies in the way we want to see them. i.e. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. I don't like seeing Pan n' scan existing as it is, but at the least, I like to be able to have the option to watch Widescreen. Is that too much to ask? Apparantly, according to Warner, yes.
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#6 of 28 OFFLINE   Inspector Hammer!

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Posted August 19 2001 - 01:43 AM

I really wouldn't care if J6p watched their tv's upside down and standing on their heads as long as OAR is always made available.

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#7 of 28 OFFLINE   Paul W

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Posted August 19 2001 - 02:44 AM

Cees,

I should point out (and I'm sure you thought of this somewhere along the line) that there is no such thing as a truly open matte presentation. As soon as they have to zoom (and pan$scam) for effects shots, then your mattes are actually cutting off too much of the top and bottom (in addition to already losing the side information.

Open matte is never acceptable. I think that's a point we should all come to agreement on.

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#8 of 28 OFFLINE   Kevin Matthews

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Posted August 19 2001 - 04:36 AM

Hi everyone! This will be my first post here at HTF although I have been reading the threads for about one & 1/2 years now so I know most will understand (if not agree) with the humor in this following statement...

"If J6P were to embrace OAR.." I think we would see quite a few folks around here embrace P&S! Posted Image

I'm kidding of course but sadly enough many feel the need to define the "Enemy" in order to define themselves....I can't honestly say that I don't fall into that hole from time to time.
Over time I have found that this forum is a great outlet for adult discussion for all things Home Theater but unfortunately I have also found that it can be quite a large outlet for bitching and attacking those "simple folk" who should be tortured and killed for not agreeing with "we the superior" about OAR...yeah I can feel all of you guys rolling your eyes and saying "ugg, not this old argument again" and you would be right, it is an old worn out statement. Nonetheless I do believe that in time they (Joe average) will come around to widescreen with the supposed influx of HDTV in the next five years....well....that is if the prices for these sets drop to the level they need to be at in order for the deadline to be met, I mean come on, if the average worker had to fight hard to convince his wife to get a DVD Player imagine how hard it's going to be for him to convince her to spend the amount of cash it takes to get a HDTV even in three years time at the rate prices are slowly dropping.
umm....well I seem to have gone off on a rant there so just let me say that J6P must die die die...ahh I mean we should be more understanding....yeah..yeah that's it, understanding yeah that's the ticket.

Now I will go back to waiting for Without Warning & Galaxy of Terror to come out on DVD.

I got's taste in them movies thar!
Posted Image

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Kevin Matthews

No sir....I don't like it!


[Edited last by Kevin Matthews on August 19, 2001 at 12:17 PM]
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#9 of 28 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted August 19 2001 - 04:53 AM

The calibration of someone else's television is of no concern to me whatsoever. It has no bearing on the presentation of the movie on MY television.

When someone prefers a misframed presentation of the film, however, and the studio goes out of its way to make that version availble, and that version becomes the only version available at some stores, or the only version available at all, THEN it becomes a concern of mine.
 

 


#10 of 28 OFFLINE   Cees Alons

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Posted August 19 2001 - 05:45 AM

Paul,

You're absolutely right. Don't be afraid I will ever advocate anything but OAR.

You understand, of course, that in my theoretical discussion of what's-worst-questions, that would no longer count as a truly open-matte presentation.

And I can also agree with those who do not care how other people choose to watch films in their homes - they can FF objectional context, or stand in front of the screen during a saucy scene, or perhaps use a future PG-programming enhancement - as long as the original version is available to who-ever wants to have that.

Cees


#11 of 28 OFFLINE   Patrick McCart

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Posted August 19 2001 - 06:46 AM

Most people don't really care much about aspect ratio. I know a lot of people that really don't care if you put a movie such as Ben-Hur on a screen in widescreen, show a movie like Willy Wonka in open matte, or show a movie like Blazing Saddles in pan & scan.

The problem isn't that non HT buffs don't like widescreen, it's more like they don't really care much.

In my Literature class one year, we watched West Side Story. The school had an old pan & scanned tape and I brought in my letterboxed VHS instead. One day, I was sick, so they watched the P&S copy for that day. No one really cared much about the difference. One classmate said that the pan & scanned version looked tight (and lower in quality thanks to the old tape) compared to the widescreen version. There wasn't any complaints on either version.

We need to show how matting and letterboxing makes films better because it shows the correct composition.

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#12 of 28 OFFLINE   Ben_J_L

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Posted August 19 2001 - 06:56 AM




Check out this P&S and Widescreen visual comparison:
http://www.deception...an/widesupe.htm

Oh yeah, Pand and Scan stinks

#13 of 28 OFFLINE   Jan Strnad

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Posted August 19 2001 - 08:05 AM

Patrick wrote:
Quote:
In my Literature class one year, we watched West Side Story.

So this is how they're teaching literature these days, by showing movies? "Next, class, we will be studying The Hunchback of Notre Dame by Walt Disney...." Posted Image

Anyway...

Add me to the list of people who don't care how J6P calibrates his TV, or if people want to take movies and hack out the bad words and the sex and the violence and the heresy and the racism and the drug references and the occult and whack off the sides of the picture....

Providing that...

An uncensored, widescreen version is readily available in the best format (such as anamorphic) as well.

The problem comes when the uninformed masses foist their pro-censorship, pro-hacked-up attitude on the rest of us, which happens only with the complicity of the studios. Which is why we are at war with the J6P mentality...not the people, but the attitude.

I'm drinking a beer even as I type these words. I'm middle class from a blue collar background. I personally like a lot of J6P people, but I'm not going to let them bastardize DVD!

Cees,

Studios must look ahead. More and more of us will be buying widescreen televisions in the future. When I do, I do not want open matte transfers of my favorite films sitting in the middle of the screen or zoomed in with a considerable loss of resolution! So, open matte is not acceptable to me and I don't buy those DVDs no matter how much I love the movie. In fact the more I love it, the more incentive I have to hold out for a good DVD. If I "settle," I'm surrendering to the J6P mentality.

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#14 of 28 OFFLINE   Patrick McCart

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Posted August 19 2001 - 08:53 AM

Posted Image

The version we would watch would be the 1939 RKO version, for your information.

I had no problem with watching an AFI 100 movie during class (we wrote down all the similarities between Romeo & Juliet and WSS). It was a LOT better than watching a crummy pan & scan, 45 min. version of Zefferelli's (sic?) version of the Shakespeare play. It was the 7th grade, anyways.

The school library has a lot of great movies (although some are old and pan & scanned) like Lawrence of Arabia (1989 video!), Tora! Tora! Tora!, The Agony and the Ecstasy, Frankenstein, Gullver's Travels, etc...

I got to see LoA for the first time thanks to the library. VERY good thing that it was the restored version and letterboxed. Posted Image

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P.S.: There's no P.S.

#15 of 28 OFFLINE   Dome Vongvises

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Posted August 19 2001 - 09:06 AM

I am J6P, and I have embraced widescreen (eight years going now Posted Image). But this thread does bring up a curious point: how does one go about properly calibrating their T.V.? Does one need to do it every time for every movie? When I think of T.V. calibration, I think of that scene from The Cable Guy with Jim Carrey. I would appreciate it if someone could point me to a good website for proper T.V. calibration.

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#16 of 28 OFFLINE   Kenny Goldin

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Posted August 19 2001 - 10:20 AM

You are right---I di dnot mean to ask a "trick" question...I should have said I would rather watch an uncesnored P&S over a censored OAR. Yeah I know P&S is "edited," I just worded it wrong. Sorry. Posted Image

Still, I think the way a television is adujsted is kinda not watching a movie properly. It is still not "the BEST way" to watch a movie.

BTW--a TV can be pretty well calibrated at home, just rent or buy Video Essentials or Avia for the one who asked above.

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Funniest line I have ever read in DVD a review: "'The Simple Life' stars rich, spoiled friends Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie as two rich, spoiled friends who are taken out of their posh Los Angeles lifestyle and deposited in a small town in Arkansas..."

#17 of 28 OFFLINE   Kevin M

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Posted August 20 2001 - 02:50 PM

Well as one mid-west Kevin "M" to another I would like to say Welcome to the Forum, Kevin Matthew.

Posted Image You guys have really lost your manners around here. Posted Image

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#18 of 28 OFFLINE   Ken Garrison

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Posted June 19 2002 - 08:54 AM

Speaking of calibrating a TV. What I hate is when somebody messes with the controls and make everybody GREEN!!!! And possibily too much color, causing the reds to smear, like on my POS Magnavox 25 inch TV. My dad keeps wondering why the color looks so pail on our TV. I told him I keep turning the color down because the reds smear and it BUGS me. I have it so it looks natural to my eyes and I also put tape over the light sensor. The light sensor makes it automatically brighten and darken depending on the light in the living room. I got tired of it adjusting everytime I walked in front of the TV blocking the light. Putting tape over the sensor made the picture darker, but look better. Just bump up the brightness up a notch or two.

#19 of 28 OFFLINE   Seth Paxton

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Posted June 19 2002 - 09:30 AM

Well Dome, yes if the disc provides color bars at least then you should check your setup FOR THAT DISC. Each disc can have varying transfers that won't all look the same on your setup. That is the reason Criterion sticks color bars on there, so that you can make sure for THAT FILM that the setup is right - reds being reds, blacker than black correct, etc.

Or course most people just go with the basic setup and let that be, but I find from time to time I need to tweek a little for a specific film (and then go back to the "basic" setup afterward).

This is not a "bad" DVD, just differences.

Just like if you record songs from several different albums and play them together you might hear all sorts of volume levels and tonal quality. None is wrong, just different from each other.

Something like Video Essentials will walk you through the basics too. And it helps to have a color filter to look at the color bars when setting color/hue, VE comes with a blue. I forget what AVIA comes with, maybe all 3 primary colors.

You can go into non-enjoyment with setup, but it does have it's place and should be done and checked from time to time if you want the most out of your system.


As for the topic of the thread, if all Joe6 went for OAR I would be more worried about the apocolypse. Posted Image All any decent HTFer wants is for Joe6 to NOT SCREW UP our hobby/passion. What they do in their own home doesn't matter at all to me...unless I have to visit their house. Then what I would do was say "You fly, I'll buy" and while they are out getting food I would calibrate their system. Posted Image

#20 of 28 OFFLINE   Kenny Goldin

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Posted June 19 2002 - 12:37 PM

Wow, I had forgotten I even started this thread...!Posted Image

Speaking of calibrating Tvs, mine got reset last night and it was a pain in the butt to try and get it back. Spent mucho time w/ VE and couldn't get it back to loking very good for some reason. I'd actually forgotten at how bad my set holds black* (one of the original Sony Wega 36") have had nothing but problems with the set and am very unhappy with it. Fortunately I am smarter now, and will be able to make a much more informed purchase.

*paitently waits until I can get my new set this fall!
"We make it hard...the easy way."

Funniest line I have ever read in DVD a review: "'The Simple Life' stars rich, spoiled friends Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie as two rich, spoiled friends who are taken out of their posh Los Angeles lifestyle and deposited in a small town in Arkansas..."





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