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Pioneer EliTe vs Yamaha (opinions plz)


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#1 of 29 OFFLINE   Will^B

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Posted August 18 2003 - 09:09 AM

Well, figured i'd start out this thread by saying I joined today after browsing these forums for quite a few days now looking over lots of great info. I am fairly new to the home audio world, but been an electronics guru for quite a while Posted Image

Ok on to the topic.. After reading many forums and seeing how much im willing to spend and the availability in my area.. I have come down to...

Pioneer Elite 41tx
or
Yamaha RX-v1300

Both are or at least seem to be around the same price, as for how they compare to each other i don't really know as i cant look at there specs and figure it out which is better as im new to all this as I have said hehe... from what i have heard on many review sites alot of people love there v1300 , heard decent to nice things about the elite...

Well the problem is here in my town we lack any real electronic variety.. we have best buy.. circuit city.. both lack BIG TIME in my opinion.. and one or two privatly owned stores.. Well I have been by all these the best receiver in town is practically at privately owned store and they sell pioneer and integra only... running from 41tx , 45 and whatever the next step up.. If I were to get the yamaha I would have to order one online or something as nothing in town carries yamaha for some reason.

My budget is around 500.. MAYBE 600 for a receiver as I am slowly upgrading as i recently finished off my computer for the next 4 years Posted Image .. Right now all I have is some old floor speakers and two others from my old stereo.. but i am going to upgrade to a nice 5.1 maybe 6.1 setup in the next few months.

Any opinions on the two receivers would be wonderfull.. or if you feel I can get much better for the cost.. I'm at your mercy here..

Thanks in advance. Posted Image

#2 of 29 OFFLINE   Stephen Hopkins

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Posted August 18 2003 - 10:14 AM

First off, skip the Elite 41 all together. I'm not saying skip Elite altogether, but particularly the 41. It's a sheep in wolves clothing... or actually a pioneer in Elite clothing. It is literally a Pioneer VSX-D811S re-dressed in gloss black. That said, it's a great receiver in the sub-$250 range, but definitely not worth what you would pay for the Elite 41.

In the price range you're looking at, I would give strong consideration to the Elite 43TX which can ba had as a refurb from ecost.com for $470 + shipping. I just recently got one and love it. It replaced a Sony 4ES which is also a great receiver. Both retail for $1000 + and are available at great bargains right now. Sound quality is nearly identical between the 2, but the 43TX is MUCH easier to use, especially the 5-band EQ which has test tones for ever band on every speaker.

As for the 43TX compared to the yamaha, it's hard to say. Yamaha's are usually categorized as "bright" or "forward", Pioneer Elite (excluding the 41 which isn't really Elite) are generally thought of as fairly neutral, and Denon and HK are usually thought of as being "warm" or "laid back". Either way, the "sound" of a receiver makes only a minimal difference, most of the sound characteristics come from your speakers. As long as you find a receiver that puts out good clean power and has the features you like you should be happy, assuming it is paired up w/ good speakers who's sound you enjoy. That said, the 43TX would probably be better compared to the Yamaha RX-V3300, even though the 43TX can be had so cheap right now (but keep in mind it did retail for $1200 when it was released).

Hope this helps Posted Image

#3 of 29 OFFLINE   greg_t

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Posted August 18 2003 - 10:38 AM

Stephen is right about the Elite 41. I wouldn't even consider it. Pioneer has released a newer version of the 811, I believe it is the 912 and uses Pioneers MCACC. You might want to check it out.

#4 of 29 OFFLINE   Stephen Hopkins

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Posted August 18 2003 - 10:47 AM

Yeah for around $300 the Pioneer VSX-D912K would be tough to beat, although it's version of MCACC only automaticly adjusts the speaker levels, not the 5 band EQ. Either way, it's worth a look. I would have mentioned the 45TX which has full 5-band automatic MCACC at ecost.com for $500 + shipping, but they sold out very quickly and don't anticipate getting more in stock. That is why I went w/ the 43TX instead, and it is still in stock. The auto-mcacc is the only major difference in the 43TX and 45TX. The 43TX remote isn't quite as nice as the 45TX remote, but is still very functionable. The 45TX also has an RS-232 port and USB port, but there are literally NO uses for either at this point since there are no USB interface devices and no RS-232 firmware updates available (and i doubt there will be since the new 53TX and 55TXi have just been released).

#5 of 29 OFFLINE   Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Posted August 18 2003 - 12:38 PM

Will,

[quote] ...but the 43TX is MUCH easier to use... [quote] This is a valid point if you’re new to home theater. That said, Yamaha generally makes very user-friendly receivers. Don’t know how it compares to the Pioneer in that regard, but Sony makes some of the most user unfriendly stuff out there, IMO.

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#6 of 29 OFFLINE   Will^B

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Posted August 18 2003 - 12:44 PM

Just got home a bit ago and checked out ecost.com noticed warranty on the refurbs was only 90 days? That scares me hehe... dunno if i'd feel safe doin that.

It would probly be much simpler if i could just go in somewhere and compare 3-4 500 dollar'ish receivers and go from that, but all the places in town mostly have 100-300 dollar ones and like 2 899 ones etc...

I rememember years ago pioneer used to be the headstrong contender in home and car audio.. what is it nowadays? I hear alot about HK yet i dont even see that in town... but then again brings me back to my point that my town is horrible Posted Image

Well any more opinions on receivers would be very welcomed cant be too hasty with money nowadays!

And thanks to the replies so far they are surely helping the 41tx is definatly out of the question hehe...

But what can i stack with the v1300 now?

#7 of 29 OFFLINE   greg_t

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Posted August 18 2003 - 12:58 PM

Pioneer's receivers suffered for a few years. They are now back with a passion. I have the Elite 49TXi and it is awesome. Even with all it has to offer, it is very easy to use and understand. I can't say the same for the Denon 2802 it replaced. I'm a pretty technically savy guy and it took me some time to really learn the denon. I don't know about Yamaha myself, but I would recommend that you definitly check out the Pioneer 912 and Elite 43.

#8 of 29 OFFLINE   Drew_W

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Posted August 18 2003 - 03:06 PM

The sound of the receivers is going to be different...the Pioneer I believe is a rather natural sounding receiver, the Yamaha being a relatively bright receiver... In terms of user-friendliness, let me ask this: how many times are you going to setup your receiver? Once you get your receiver all setup, you're going to be doing much more listening than setting up, and the Pioneer and Yamaha receivers will sound different. Audition them and see which one you like better... Oh, and what speakers are you looking to power?
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#9 of 29 OFFLINE   DanielSmi

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Posted August 18 2003 - 03:14 PM

Actually Wayne, I owned a Yamaha about 2 years ago and it wasn't very user friendly the remote was complicated and since it didn't have OSD it was hard to change settings with the remote. While the Pioneer was much easier to useand the remote was more intuitive. Daniel Smith

#10 of 29 OFFLINE   ChrisLazarko

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Posted August 18 2003 - 04:06 PM

I don't know if you have taken a look at Harman Kardon but they also make very nice pieces too. Personally after my purchase of my AVR-225 I was just amazed once I got it home. From my old system (Panasonic SA-HE70) I just amazed how much more defined the bass was, how much cleaner the speakers were, and how much better the decoders were and how many more features there were, especially over the Yamaha in terms of features and sound. If you have about $500-600 to spend then I would look at the HK AVR-325, it has a multi-zone output for if you want to put speakers in other rooms which is awesome, tons of decoders and of course is a 7.1 channel reciever. Another great thing is that HK is the only company to have Logic7 which of course belongs to them. It is another format like Dolby ProLogic II to turn any 2 channel stereo source in a 7 channel source. The Logic7 to me sounds much better and the center channel is much more defined than in the PLII. Take a look at it and all it's features, I took a look at the AVR-225 for me for my 5.1 setup and after looking at Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer Elite, Sony, and Denon I chose this one, I love it.

#11 of 29 OFFLINE   Will^B

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Posted August 18 2003 - 04:45 PM

Thanks for the replies so far,

Yeah i have been hearing alot about the HK's but no where within a good 40 miles to try them out...

As for if im gonna be doing alot of setting up, probly untill i finish my home theater setup, starting with this then grabbing either a speaker set or single groups , then on to probly TV then furniture, redoing it all really, I normally renovate all my stuff every 3-4 years Posted Image

So as for the people saying the upper elite stuff is worth checking into.. think i should run by the private shop day after tommorow when im off and get them to show off the 43tx and i think there 45?

#12 of 29 OFFLINE   JeremyFr

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Posted August 19 2003 - 03:40 AM

Will I'd take a look at the new Yamaha's coming out here shortly the 1400 and 2400 quite impressive spec's and new amplifiers, they feature THX, 7.1 processing and many other new features definately worth a look. I've got a Yamaha RX-V730 which has OSD and an LCD remote and find it quite easy to use/set up with lots of enhanced options you can tweak. I haven't played around with Pioneers for quite a while but what I've seen there newer lines are quite nice and I will not speak badley about them as I have no basis to.
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#13 of 29 OFFLINE   Bill Cowmeadow

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Posted August 19 2003 - 04:12 PM

Look at the pioneer site for details on the 41 Elite vs 811/911 they do not appear to be the same receiver. Check it out. I know some sites show the same receiver for all of those receivers.

#14 of 29 OFFLINE   Stephen Hopkins

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Posted August 19 2003 - 04:45 PM

The D811S / Elite 41 correlation has been discussed many times on this forum. The fact that they are same receiver minus the slight differences mentioned earlier (finish/remote/re-eq) has been verified by outside sources AND by Pioneer themselves. They claim that the Elite 41 goes through another stage of quality control which lets them claim another 10 watts per channel, but the "guts" of the 2 receivers are identical.

The 41 is NOT the same receiver as the newer D812 and D912. These have the same amplification stage, but new processing (crystal dsp) and the addition of manual (D812) and automatic (D912) MCACC calibration. The front display and door have been updated slightly. So by all accounts, the Elite 41 is a WORSE receiver than either the new D812 and D912 which RETAIL for $300 and $400 respectively and can be had for noticeably less online.

Hope this clears up any confusion Posted Image

#15 of 29 OFFLINE   Drew_W

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Posted August 19 2003 - 05:07 PM

The fact that the 41tx (at least in Canada) retails for half of what the next model up (the 43tx) retails for should set off some bells...in my mind, the "true" Pioneer Elite receivers start at the 43tx... I could be wrong, but I think the 43tx is getting replaced by the 53tx, and if this is the case, you should be able to get a great deal on a 43tx, which is a very highly regarded receiver here and on avsforums.
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#16 of 29 OFFLINE   DonnyD

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Posted August 19 2003 - 10:08 PM

I have to chirp in as a HT fan first and a Yamaha fan second. All the units mentioned above will do you a good job and some are probably have a few bells and whistles you'll not see much benefit from. Several companies are changing out their lines now so "last years" units are at some pretty good prices. There are several online sources who are secure to deal with. Let me touch on the bright/ warm comments. Yes, receivers are gonna sound different according to the speakers matched with them but then in accordance with their placement in a particular room and its furnishings. Different furnishings soak up or reflect sound so this kinda needs adding in to the equation. Then you get into your age group and your work. Older persons (such as myself) have lost and are still losing a little hearing due to age and environmental noise polution that affects us all to some degree. We just hear differently. Yamahas advertise themselves as natural sound. Denon warm, etc,etc,etc. Personally, have had several receivers for HT over many years, have only had Yamaha for 6 years now as they just began to sound cleaner to my ears with my layout, my furnishings and my old-ass ears. That being said, a friend has a Denon that sounds bright to me but he has Klipsch speakers and hardwoord floors too. Major bright!!! The thing you are certainly doing right is getting on here and asking. These guys are great here and obsessed with helping you and just like me, will point out a million things to consider. That is what makes it fun to me. I am always changing out something, tweaking this, adding this, etc. My system is comprised of a Yamaha RXV-1 but using an external Acurus amp to drive some old JBL mains. Together this is supposed to be "bright" per most persons interpretation of equipment matching. I am currently trying out some Energy Veritas mains that so far are laid back and slow to slap you in the face. I've been in car audio since amps came into being in the 70's and I demand clean powerful sound and that is what I gonna have. So settle on you a receiver, hook up your existing speakers and go from there. I too am in a small town with several miles to travel to hear options so I know what you are facing. But in the long run, taking your time from step to step will pay off . You are gonna have fun with this and so are we. Hope I haven't thrown too many variables in there but then again, they are things that you probably would want to consider anyway. Good luck. My sig can be used as a warning !!LOL
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#17 of 29 OFFLINE   Will^B

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Posted August 20 2003 - 01:02 AM

Just wanted to say thanks so far, you guys are a big help.

Well I will be going by a place in town today to hopefully sample the 43tx

Probly gonna look up the manuals on:

HK AVR-325
Pioneer 43TX
Yamaha V1300

As its come down to practically these due to price and options..

My goal is to have a nice receiver that will last me a good 4-6 years untill I have to upgrade again Posted Image

I'm avoiding looking at speakers just yet for the simple fact that its gonna bog my brain down again. Well will keep you updated if i get a chance to check the pioneer.

Thanks again, peace.

#18 of 29 OFFLINE   Will^B

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Posted August 21 2003 - 01:21 PM

Well if anyone cares, I haven't had a chance to go hear the 43 due to my busy work schedule, but i did run by a friends yesterday for a bit and listened to his 53tx that he had running on some JBL's I was quite impressed though he was missing center channel (its being RMA'd i think)

Think I may consider stepping up and getting 53 instead of 43.. though im not sure if its that much of an increase over the 43.

Might go listen to the 43 in the store as i think they MAY have a 53 or it could have been a 45.. only one way to find out Posted Image

#19 of 29 OFFLINE   Jon_Welker

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Posted August 21 2003 - 02:01 PM

53TX gets you Auto MCACC over the 43TX is probably the biggest difference. I have a 45TX with Auto MCACC and it is just a wonder to use for setting your system up and applying those settings to everyday use on just about every souce you listen to when it is enabled.
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#20 of 29 OFFLINE   Stephen Hopkins

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Posted August 21 2003 - 02:53 PM

The auto MCACC is great, but the deals available on the 43TX right now make it very attractive. The manual mcacc works just as well, but puts requires your own SPL meter instead of that in the receiver. Beyond speaker level calibration there is a 5 band eq for each speaker and test tones for each band. You simply calibrate each tone to match the alternating tone of the main speaker and you're done. It took me about 10 minutes to do and I'm very happy with the results.

I got my 43TX for $470 at ecost.com . If they had still had the 45TX for $500 i definitely would have got it instead, but they didn't, and after using the manual mcacc i don't feel I'm really missing out on anything other than a slight convenience.

The amplification and processing of the 43TX is exactly the same as the 45TX, 53TX, and 55TXi, so they will all SOUND exactly the same when properly calibrated.

Hope this helps Posted Image




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