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New Sony ES digital receivers have high THD! (1 Viewer)

Eric Lo

Agent
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Oct 3, 1999
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Check out the Sony Australia site. It seems like the new STR-DA5000ES has pretty high THD :rolleyes

Surround Mode: 0.7% at 170W x 7, 8 ohm, 1kHz
Stereo Mode: 0.09% at 150W x 2, 8 ohm, 20-20kHz

http://www.sony.com.au/Objects/image...0_HIFICOMP.pdf

For comparison purpose, here are the THDs of TAN-9000ES:

Surround Mode: 0.013% at 115W x 5, 8 ohm, 20-20kHz
Stereo Mode: 0.09% at 140W x 2, 8 ohm, 20-20kHz

-- Eric
 

Oliver

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 28, 1999
Messages
102
So what?
This say just about 0 of the sound you can expect.
First of all the spec. are all different in an real digital amp, just like used in the 5000ES. They do sound different as well.
And: take a look at a tube amp. They really got bad spec. but do they sound fantastic?
 

JackS

Supporting Actor
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Jan 17, 2002
Messages
634
Like you, I would prefer to see lower THD numbers. I'm not exactly sure what it means in the real world when most of the experts say you can't hear anything below 1%. I personally take the THD rating as an indicator of overall amp quality so we'll have to wait and see what the pro reviewers have to say about this high number. Many recievers and amps in the 1960/70's had THD ratings around 1% and I don't recall any sound related issues because of this. To my mind this stuff sounded as good then as anything bieng produced today.I have seen the exact same THD rating for the Denon 4800 which doesn't seem to bother the fans of this receiver so it may turn out that it's really insignificant and just the nature of these new digital amps and receivers.
 

AaronBatiuk

Second Unit
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
333
Carver used to make amplifiers with up to 2 or 3 % distortion, but they sounded very good (and yes they were solid state, not tubed). Their theory was that a low level of feedback resulted in a more musical sound, albiet with more distortion.

As for the Sony specs, I'd be curious to see what the distortion figures are at 150W instead of 170W.
 

terence

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Nov 8, 2002
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Long as it is below 1% i don't think it's a big deal. Now you have to remember the new ES line are using digital amps instead of solid state. So this a whole new breed in it self, i think the industry should come out with a new testing standard for digital amps. The high distortion might not mean anything with these new ES's. I agree with JackS, I can't wait to see some pro reviews,real world numbers, and most important...........How do they sound?!
 

Jack Briggs

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Jun 3, 1999
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You are not going to hear harmonic distortion below 1 percent.

In the early 1970s, Stereo Review conducted controlled listening tests that, in some cases, seemed to demonstrate that THD levels of 1.5 percent or greater approached the threshold of audibility.
 

Mike Mundt

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Messages
64
did you look at the two ES models that are .05%????

STR-DA4ES
STR-DA7ES

im not sure why your lookin at the aust. site when we have a nice american site right here.
 

Dmitry

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 30, 1998
Messages
742
Mike,

those are older models, they don't have digital amps. And AFAIK none of the american sites have published specs on the upcoming models Eric's refering to.
 

DarrylM

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Jan 4, 2003
Messages
167
I've never heard a Sony that didn't have a high THD level, including their ES models. Most of them also had significant cross-talk. I doubt their new models are any different. Digital switching amps have their own limitations.

And there wouldn't be any reason to have separate standards for digital switching amps. THD is a measurement of sonic performance, and accurate sound is accurate sound, whether you got there with tube amps or digital switching amps or whatever.
 

Seth_L

Screenwriter
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Ahh yes... Another bash Sony thread. We can't have too many of them. This is where people who haven't heard the gear in question bench race it based on numbers they don't understand. :thumbsdown:
 

DarrylM

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Ahh yes... Another bash Sony thread... This is where people who haven't heard the gear in question bench race it based on numbers they don't understand.
Ahh yes... Another Sony Fanboy... This is where people who became Sony junkies fifteen years ago because someone bought them a Walkman for their birthday step up to pimp a manufacturer whose commitment to quality and technology is displaced more and more every year by a commitment to lower production costs. ;)

Don't worry, I used to be one, too. I, personally, have owned 3 DE receivers, 2 DB receivers, and 2 ES receivers over the past eight years, before finally abandoning the line. Sony's products are becoming more and more feature-driven, in order to appeal to Joe Average, and less and less performance-driven.

post-scriptum,

And, yes, every Sony I owned had audible distortion and cross-talk. Though you can search other threads for a complete discussion, if you'd like.
 

JackS

Supporting Actor
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After retiring my reasonably high end two channel seperates four years ago, I bought an ES receiver as my first venture into HT. I wanted to keep it much simpler than I had in the past. In the last four years I've spent several K upgrading amps and speakers and plan to spend about 2 K more this year. The one piece that will continue in my present system is my 5ch. ES receiver. For me, there is no upgrade to any receiver of any brand beyond what I presently own. I think it comes down to sound value vs. money spent. There are many areas in a setup that can yield a significant improvement but the receiver is not one of them. I'll be keeping my ES for a few more years and in the meantime looking at other things to upgrade.
 

Seth_L

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And, yes, every Sony I owned had audible distortion and cross-talk. Though you can search other threads for a complete discussion, if you'd like.
But that doesn't mean this one will have it. Considering the signals don't hit analog until the speaker wires it'd be pretty hard to get a lot of crosstalk.

If being a fanboy consists of waiting to hear something before condemning, then yes, I'm a fanboy.
 

Chu Gai

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Jun 29, 2001
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Once you hit your 18th birthday, you become a fanman. Under what conditions did you get the cross-talk?
 

DarrylM

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If being a fanboy consists of waiting to hear something before condemning, then yes, I'm a fanboy.
Actually, I would say that being a Sony Fanboy consists of making a deragatory reference to a "Sony bashing thread" after someone else has expressed some legitimate concerns about Sony products.
 

DarrylM

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Jan 4, 2003
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like what!?? Stated above long as THD is below 1% there is no concern. When threads like this pop up they are doomed from the start
1. I wasn't debating anything about distortion. However, since you're expressing an interesting perspective on the subject, I'll add that Sony's THD rating applies to a certain power threshold, measured under specific conditions. As the impedance of the speaker decreases, the number of channels driven increases, and/or the volume level increases above reference, you can expect considerably more distortion. You seem to be asserting that a receiver with a THD rating of less than 1% will never sound distorted or clip?!? Wouldn't that be nice.
2. Even more bothersome to me than the distortion was the high noise floor. I heard audible hiss in the surround and center channel speakers in all of my Sonys, which was particularly noticeable during quiet passages.
3. There were several other performance aspects that also bothered me, including the cross-talk between inputs, which was bothersome moreso just because I knew it was there, and high operating temperatures, which actually caused protection mode shut-downs on one of my ES models.

But, if you like your Sony, more power to you. To each his own.
 

Diallo B

Screenwriter
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Dec 18, 2002
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If being a fanboy consists of waiting to hear something before condemning, then yes, I'm a fanboy.
Although I do not consider myself a Sony Fanboy I am quite happy with my 4ES. I am also looking forward to auditioning a new 5000ES. As stated above, I am going to wait to hear the receiver before I pass judgement on it.

On another note, this thread was doomed from the beginning anyway. Look at the title:

New Sony ES digital receivers have high THD!

It reads like a newsflash or something. More tabloid journalism.

djb
 

Seth_L

Screenwriter
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Messages
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Also, I have yet to hear anything positive about the sound quality of digital switching amplifiers. While they often require smaller components and operate at lower temperatures, I have heard that many have poor bass response and that all of them have a harder time with higher frequencies because of the extremely high switching cycles required to reproduce them. (I assume that this is why digital switching amps are more common on subwoofers, since the frequencies involved are relatively low.)
Time to take your head out of the sand. There have been several critically acclaimed full range digital amps. They exist, you just don't know about them so you bash on Sony for going digital. Way to go!

These people seem duly impressed. http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=2297

Some more reading for you.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/robert01.htm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...-6-4-2002.html
http://www.laaudiofile.com/sdex111.html
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/us_realitysa.htm
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/am...ges/21654.html

But what do all these people know in comparison to you? I guess I'll just ignore all the happy people and focus on your 5 year old opinion of the technology.
 

DarrylM

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 4, 2003
Messages
167
But what do all these people know in comparison to you
Hmm... "...sharply rising distortion with rising frequency."

And I said, "...have a harder time with higher frequencies..."

What do these people know? The same thing I tried to tell you earlier.

It's too bad that Internet message boards don't require some minimal reading comprehension skills before posting.
 

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