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Reasons why I think DVD-A will survive


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#1 of 55 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted November 09 2001 - 03:04 AM

1- As we all know DVD players are the hottest piece of electronics in the market place today. That being said DVD-A capabilities on new players are standard.

2- Almost by default, everytime you purchase a DVD player you would have dvd-A as a bonus.

3-Most manufactures support DVD-A (all except philips/sony)

4- DVD-A titles are coming down the pipeline very fast and with modern titles.....
Think before you speak....Peace always

#2 of 55 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted November 09 2001 - 04:01 AM

Quote:
1- As we all know DVD players are the hottest piece of electronics in the market place today. That being said DVD-A capabilities on new players are standard.
Posted Image
Quote:
2- Almost by default, everytime you purchase a DVD player you would have dvd-A as a bonus.
Posted Image
Quote:
3-Most manufactures support DVD-A (all except philips/sony)
Posted Image
Quote:
4- DVD-A titles are coming down the pipeline very fast and with modern titles.....
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image




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#3 of 55 OFFLINE   StaceyS

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Posted November 09 2001 - 04:05 AM

Quote:
http://www.hometheat....o-11-2001.html

Here is our latest article, which takes a first crack at DVD-A.

#4 of 55 OFFLINE   Todd K

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Posted November 09 2001 - 04:34 AM

What exactly are the disadvantages of playing a DVD-A on a standard DVD video player? I was under the impression that a lot of DVD-A's had features that allowed them to be played on standard players. Is there any difference in the sound quality or capabilities?

#5 of 55 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted November 09 2001 - 04:55 AM

Todd,

There's a huge difference in the sonic quality between DD/DTS and DVD-Audio.

Please read our article on DVD-A, that Stacey referenced above.

DVD-A discs do indeed include a DVD-V compatible structure (also covered in that article) which allows them to be played back on a DVD-V only player.

You will not experience anywhere near the sonic capability of DVD-A until you hear it on a player that is DVD-A capabile.

Regards,

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#6 of 55 OFFLINE   Brian Perry

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Posted November 09 2001 - 05:17 AM

Stacey,

That is an awesome article! It is taking me a while to get through the MLP section, and I have a question. It seems that the Prediction Filter could result in decoding that is not bit-for-bit accurate when compared to the source. Could you please expand on how the filter works?

Thanks,
Brian

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#7 of 55 OFFLINE   Thomas_Berg

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Posted November 09 2001 - 05:23 AM

i'm still laughing at Philip's post. Posted Image

i'm not sure either (or any) of us understand what you mean anthony_b.

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[Edited last by Thomas_Berg on November 09, 2001 at 12:23 PM]

#8 of 55 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted November 09 2001 - 06:49 AM

Philip and Thomas, the title of the post should explain everything. Philip, what's with the faces ?....Do you think they're false statements or something ?...If so, look into the new DVD players and you'll know what I'm talking about.....I'll even say that DVD-A titles are easier to find than SACD's !!....These are just my opinions, I don't want anyone getting nasty..
Think before you speak....Peace always

#9 of 55 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted November 09 2001 - 07:06 AM

Brian,

I'm not Stacey, but I think I can expound on that.

Think of the prediction filter as a "model" for which the samples are known precisely. It could be a sine wave (it isn't) or it could be a square wave (it isn't) or a sawtooth wave (it isn't). The point is that the complete sampling characteristics of that wave is known.

So, if we engage "prediction filter 1", then we know what the default values for each sample are. Once this is known, all we have to do is record the difference between the known sample value and our sample value.

Now, let's say for example, that Prediction filter 1 has
8 samples, with values:
10, 13, 18, 21, 19, 15, 18, 12 vs. our real live samples:
11, 13, 17, 19, 20, 16, 19, 14

Since we have prefaced these 8 samples with "use prediction filter 1 for the next 8 samples" the only values we encode are the deltas (math term for differences), which are:
+1, 0, -1, -2, +1, +1, +1, +2

At decode time, we see the signal that "prediction filter 1 is in use for 8 samples, and apply these corrections:
+1 (to 10), 0 (to 13), -1 (to 18), -2 (to 21), +1 (to 19), +1 (to 15), +1 (to 18), +2 (to 14).


Granted this is way simplified, but it illustrates the principle nicely.

The key is that the encoder and the decoder know the same values for prediction filters -- since this is the case, no data is lost.


Regards,


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John Kotches
Contributing Writer
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity


[Edited last by John Kotches on November 09, 2001 at 02:06 PM]

[Edited last by John Kotches on November 09, 2001 at 02:09 PM]
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#10 of 55 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted November 09 2001 - 07:11 AM

I don't understand the statements.

The last one about lots of DVD-As coming out confuses me the most. Where are they???? I've got a DVD-A machine myself and I find the amount of software out there and coming to be very very tiny.

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#11 of 55 OFFLINE   Chris-C

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Posted November 09 2001 - 07:28 AM

In reply to Phillip;

Go to DVDPlanet.com, and click on the DVDAudio icon.

They list almost a hundred titles.

DVDA's are now sold at Best Buys,but they're mixed in with the DVD Video music section so thats a little wierd.

With only about 100 titles so far thats a small beginning
but hopefully many more titles will follow.

Regards

CC Rider

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#12 of 55 OFFLINE   John Tillman

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Posted November 09 2001 - 07:51 AM

I think six channel music will survive for other reasons than what the original poster stated.

I agree with you Phil in that the pickins' are indeed slim at this time. However, the reservoir (from the 60's on) is huge.

The whole Napster issue was about record companies losing a multi-billion dollar cash flow from teenyboppers. While this was going on, middle aged people stopped buying music, due to not buying into the style changes of the last decade.

When yesterdays masterpieces are properly re-mixed for six channel music, a huge revenue stream will re-emerge for the studios. Since I picked up a RP-91 and some DVD-A's such as Rumors, American Beauty and Two Against Nature I'm eagerly waiting for the next batch. If the releases keep coming with this kind of quality I'll be waving my wallet with pleasure. These guys could release two quality discs a week for the next ten years and not scratch the surface. None of this MP3 steal a copy rip off stuff. A whole generation of music starved middle aged rockers with money to spend.
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#13 of 55 OFFLINE   Thomas_Berg

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Posted November 09 2001 - 08:14 AM

ok i think i know what anthony is saying...lemme rephrase in better words:

#1- newer DVD players are starting to have support for DVD-A. this is partially true. time will tell...

#2- basically the same thing as #1. he's saying that DVD-A will be standard on future DVD players. again, i partially agree. only time will tell...

#3- this likely refers to the battle for 'whats next' between SACD and DVD-A. i think he means that there are more titles available for DVD-A than its competitor...i know this is true for the genre of music i like (rock). but i think the comment is directed more at playback hardware than software titles.

#4- this is still really confusing, especially "DVD-A titles are coming down the pipeline very fast", but i think he's getting at the fact that more new releases are being released to DVD-A than ever before (especially with regard to SACD).

let's take another objective look at this.

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#14 of 55 OFFLINE   AjayM

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Posted November 09 2001 - 08:53 AM

Quote:
In reply to Phillip;
Go to DVDPlanet.com, and click on the DVDAudio icon.

They list almost a hundred titles.

DVDA's are now sold at Best Buys,but they're mixed in with the DVD Video music section so thats a little wierd.

With only about 100 titles so far thats a small beginning
but hopefully many more titles will follow.

Regards

CC Rider

The Best Buy near me sells DVD-A, but again mixed with the DVD videos in the music section. They also have the starting of an SACD collection, with more titles carried than DVD-A. I also heard one of the Best Buy employee push SACD very hard on a couple asking what it was.

As to the numbers, I believe Sony has 15 or so record labels producing SACD's, and they have something like 220+ SACD titles out now.

Then you have Sony, Philips, Marantz, Accuphase, Denon, Kenwood, Aiwa, and Sharp manufacturing SACD players. And I'm pretty sure SACD will last longer than something like mini-disc...but time will tell I'm sure.

Andrew


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#15 of 55 OFFLINE   RicP

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Posted November 09 2001 - 09:14 AM

Quote:
Go to DVDPlanet.com, and click on the DVDAudio icon.
They list almost a hundred titles
107 actually. But take away the TBA's and the Pre-Orders and what you're left with is not a very compelling selection.

I have both DVD-A and SACD capability in my system, so I don't care which one succeeds. I prefer SACD as of now. There are over 400 SACD titles out worldwide right now, and I prefer the sonic quality of the SACD's out now to the DVD-Audio titles. There is only one (Telarc 1812) that is on both formats so this is not a direct comparison, but a general statement of preference.

DVD-A is severely lacking at this point in my eyes.


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#16 of 55 OFFLINE   StaceyS

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Posted November 09 2001 - 09:15 AM

Neither Denon nor Kenwood have made an SACD player, only DVD-A at this point.

Marantz has also introduced their first DVD-A player. They are no longer under Philips and tied to SACD.

#17 of 55 OFFLINE   StaceyS

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Posted November 09 2001 - 09:17 AM

The DVDPlanet only lists US releases and not even all of those. Last time I checked, Glen Phillips was not listed. There are many more overseas. I just received 6 from MDG in Germany that are all encoded using 2+2+2.

#18 of 55 OFFLINE   Tomoko Noguchi

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Posted November 09 2001 - 11:25 AM

I honestly can't see why both couldn't survive (DVD-A and SACD). I also have both (one a Panasonic RP-91 and the other Sony SA-9000ES), but see machines with SACD and DVD-A coming out in the future.

Also, like RicP, I also prefer SACD.

#19 of 55 OFFLINE   PatrickM

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Posted November 09 2001 - 11:51 AM

I think time will tell if DVD-A is going to continue to grow. Personally, I like the format. I have a RP91 and I find certain discs to be very good. I've also read a lot of good things about SACD but don't have one yet.

I know this is off topic but one problem about comparing the two is common recordings (which few exist) or source material but even that's a problem. If you look at the Telarc 1812 SACD, CD and DVD-A, they may all be from the same source but what is that source?

If the source recording was recorded in 24/96 PCM then there would be processing required to change it into DSD for SACD. Vice versa if it was recorded in DSD and you wanted to put out a DVD-A you'd have to convert it to 24/96 PCM. And, do we really want the source recorded in analog? Probably not so you have to pick either PCM or DSD and whichever you choose, the other format will probably suffer from conversion. So, in the end, can you really accurately compare the two formats?

Anybody have thoughts on this?

Patrick

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#20 of 55 OFFLINE   AjayM

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Posted November 09 2001 - 12:09 PM

Quote:
Neither Denon nor Kenwood have made an SACD player, only DVD-A at this point.
Marantz has also introduced their first DVD-A player. They are no longer under Philips and tied to SACD.

Marantz has had an SACD player for a little while now, maybe they will keep both formats? The Denon/Kenwood came from Sony's website, so who knows. Maybe they are planning to come out with one (or probably waiting to see which way the market goes).

I think there's a key element here, what about price? SACD's are a lot less money than I thought they would be $14-18, not much more than a regular CD? What are DVD-A's going for? I saw one at Best Buy this evening and it was $22 (but I didn't look at any others).

It's kind of strange, there are a lot of DVD Audio players out there, but not a lot of titles....where as there are fairly few SACD players available, but a lot more titles.

Andrew

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